Shaka of Carthage Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Zappsweden Actually, thats not what I said. But as I mentioned earlier, I'm not really trying to discuss the specifics of the how to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Codename Great Post. A similar Thread ran recently at the General Forum, but nobody listed the links to those two movies and stories. Great comparrison. I feel the same way, trying to identify cheaters turns into a witch hunt. [ October 19, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert Cater Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Posts on this form of manipulating the values in SC has been around for a while, and unfortunately is commonly done in a lot of games with a similar implementation. As Shaka mentioned there is no fool proof way to prevent "cheating" but I will be doing something in SC2 that will make it at least much more of a challenge to dynamically edit these values at run time. Not perfect but will at least be addressed. Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Codename Condor --- Nice take! Rack 'em. "I don't know is The Thing and who isn't. All I know is whoever comes near me is going to get fried." --- quoting the dude w/ the flamethrower is the 1982 moview The Thing. Jersey --- Never underestimate the value of a good WitchHunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 General Rambo "Jersey --- Never underestimate the value of a good WitchHunt." A good point, and whose to say there aren't real witches running around? I've known three women who claimed to be and two men who said they were wizards. Who's to say they weren't? And if they happen to be good witches and wizards then perhaps it's good having them around. [ October 19, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted October 20, 2003 Author Share Posted October 20, 2003 Originally posted by Shaka of Carthage: Zappsweden Actually, thats not what I said. But as I mentioned earlier, I'm not really trying to discuss the specifics of the how to. u said earlier that: "Even the feature you described can be easily defeated, unless there is a constant data update between machines to show changed values." If u say something can be easily defeated without saying why, I think it demands an explanation. You brought me an example that a manipulation of values is possible. I agree. But value manipulation does not mean the cheater wont be detected. I do not agree that a constant data update is needed. You do not need to catch the cheater when the value changes. He will be caught by the RESULT of the cheating. If u add units or MPP on your machine, it will still be unchanged on my machine and eventually the game produces illegal moves. You cannot force MY machine to adapt to the manipulated values. I am NOT for a constant data flow, but a strict communication every time one player does something (moves, attacks, buys, sells, ...). It will be very much like Object Oriented Programming since both objects will have their own values and they can only be changed withing themselves. To the outsider, the only way to affect the object is by calling its functions (with the parameters sent through the data stream). The communications can then be limited to sending parameters for functions. That is much more secure than sending important stats and results that can be manipulated by the sender before he sends. Because if the receiver does not calculate the result himself he will never know if the result is manipulated. [ October 19, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Gilbert Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Interesting ... I had never heard of an MMP Cheater app or a FOW Sniffer. Didn't know they existed. [where can I get them :eek: ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonheart Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Man and i thought i was playing so weak...i only lost against a simple cheat programm. It´s like loosing ag Deep Blue. I think that most of you know each other very well and that you are pretty sure that there is no cheater. Once when i played Panzergeneral 3D i played ag a person cheating against me. It was proved because the league where i played, and still play, has a program which is able to find out if one has cheated or not. But the Highlight is that he lost against me despite of cheating. :eek: So please if you cheat ag me use enough MPP to win. By the way every single SC-League game is cheated....why? because of the bid system we are using the editor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Condor Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Thx a lot Jersey John & Rambo, i must say i dont read the general forum but i should begin if there are such interesting things. About the new debate concerning cheating & the convenience of an improve SC editor, i must say im not worried about cheating, com'on, we all know if someone is willing to cheat this game is perfect for it, we are even editing the game before a match!, when someonce is lucky and gets jets too early a doubt arise: maybe this guy has edited 10 tech chits for his side. Confidence is important, if ive never played the guy before i would be concerned for a while (till i catch up in jets, he he), if i'd played him lots of times i would know him. I remember a game with terif long ago when i developed jets level 4 as axis incredibly soon, and he was still level 1, i remember him saying "something is terribly wrong here" or something like that, but we had played lots of times before and i assumed he was referring to the probability system instead the fact that i could be cheating. He hid his airfleets and just before Barbarrosa he surprised me with 5 UK airfleets level 5!, i still wonder how he could save so much, i was still level 4 and he crushed me. Im sure that same game with 2 newbies woulda finished in accusations of cheating. This is a small community and we know each other so i would like to have a better editor to edit units costs and so on even tho if that would make cheating easier. Many times I didnt even look the report at the beginning of a game to see possible extra units. If someone has cheated against me, well i just dont care cos I possibly won u anyway. [ October 20, 2003, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Codename Condor ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Cheating? Who cares! People will cheat you all your life, get over it. Sometimes you know it, sometimes you don't, if you want to find out take'em out to the golf course (eh Rambo),play a game that reveals their complete lack of self esteem and integrity. SC is for fun pure and simple, its a life enhancer nothing more, nothing less, you control its effect, not someone else. One good thing from this thread though....there is an SC2, ...don't worry about cheaters, they're a nonissue, for it is their loss not ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Hi Condor Yes, you are right. Like everyone else I swear and curse upon the research system when it creates again a crazy result, not in my favour... . If I remember right, you got 3 advances in row or something like that, but thats SC . Something like this happens in nearly every game on one side or the other. Fortunately - at least since the catch up system - it is not such a problem, cause even with only 3 chits its no real problem to reach the same level in an acceptable amount of time. And it even has an advantage: Lv 1 airfleets are cheap to buy compared to Lv 4 (each Lv increases the costs by 10%!). And given enough time the tech gap will be closed soon . Besides, surprise is the main weapon of the Allies (only after they couldnt surprise veteran players any more, bids were going so high - remember the "good old days" when Allies could win against everyone without a bid...? ) So for all: never give up, only because you are behind in tech. Go in the defensive, protect your low tech units (If the enemy wants to do harm to them: then as UK send them to Ireland or Canada into a training camp. As Axis or Russia you can send them towards Siberia into a nice Gulag ) and wait until you have catched up . [ October 20, 2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Condor Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Originally posted by Terif: And it even has an advantage: Lv 1 airfleets are cheap to buy compared to Lv 4 (each Lv increases the costs by 10%!). And given enough time the tech gap will be closed soon . Hi again, I never understood why that increment in the price, it really drove to invest everything into Industrial Tech after France and let the allies to develop jets and then in barbarrosa to catch with allies in jets, by that time u can have level 3 in IT and buy everything cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fischkopf Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Very careful checking of client/host variables would help resolve almost all of the MPP and related cheats. For things like tech rolls you would also need a carefully shared random seed, so the client and host could both predict rolls identically. This can be annoying to program (see the postmortem of Rise of Nations on gamasutra) but not impossible. However, 'FOW Sniffers' cannot be eliminated if you're comparing game states at every turn. Since both the client and the host each have a complete copy of the the game state, all the hacker has to do is cleverly wade through it all to find what he/she wants (unit locations, etc...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olduvai_at_work Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by Shaka of Carthage: ...You can't make a living playing SC, nor does it get you females... Well now I know about the living thing, but the stuff about the females is wrong, right? I got this game because a friend told me wargaming is a chick magnet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Gilbert Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 No, really, is there such things as an MMP Cheatrer or an FOW Sniffer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 Originally posted by jon_j_rambo: I always felt something fishy was going on. Hey Terif, how's that FOW sniffer work? The SC era has been full of new features that boosted interest from time to time. The awaited 1.06 patch (TCP/IP play) The first AAR The start of the World Championship Ladder The start of the ZappLeague The 1.07 patch The Ryder CUP The SC CUP SC has stalled for a while now, the SC CUP shown little actual interest (though many players signed up) and there are no new patches before SC2. Just at this moment in the timeline, Terif dropped out after a challenge argument. Hombre Plin dropped out after a cheating argument just weeks later. The strange thing is that these things happen so convenient in time, in a time with no new SC surprises. Rambo now practically points out Terif as a cheater and Terif does not even respond... (he reads every important discussion (he posts too) so he cannot have missed this Rambo reply ) I heard by other players that Hombre Plin says he got the FOW sniffer from Terif. Since Hombre Plin has played me 10+ times before and not complained, it strongly indicates that he got the cheating software quite recently. If that is true, we have 2 cases. A1) Hombre is telling the truth (he got the FOW sniffer from Terif) OR A2) he lied There are also two cases on why he retired B1) He left because he thought Terif AND/OR Zappsweden AND/OR other players were cheating B2) He left because being tired of SC In my opinion, IF he got the FOW sniffer from Terif (A1) then it is likely he left because he though some players were cheating (B1) In my opinion, IF he lied (A2) then it likely he left because he got tired of SC (B2). Since Hombre Plin did not even provide any numbers or facts (like anyone determined to reveal cheating would do) it seems he was not interesting in revealing cheating. Accusations without interest in finding out the truth indicates he was lying. It also indicates he was tired of SC, wanted to get out and did it in a definate way. There is something fishy about all the things that happened recently. [ October 29, 2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Zapp: Seems you love to spread rumours about me since you wasnt able to beat me on the battlefield and had to change the rules to get the top spot in your own League... I only left the ZL because of you and your behaviour. And what you did since this time (including your last post) proves me that I have been right with my judgement of your character... I just replied in Rambos thread: I never used and will never use a cheat program, especially not for SC. I know how to play the game, obviously in contrary to you... you didnt cheat in the game, but you changed the rules to have an advantage... I play to have fun and a good game. I give every not so experienced opponent a bonus, so that he has a chance to beat me, or I use crazy strategies to even out my higher experience. You only play to win and for competition (your own words..)....thats not my way to play. [ October 30, 2003, 06:12 AM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted October 30, 2003 Author Share Posted October 30, 2003 Please learn to read, mr Terrible. I (contrary to you) do not accuse anyone without the benefit of the doubt. I do not raise myself to that level thinking I am all that. I still think it is fishy that ppl drop out in the most unusual ways just at this SC stalled moment. Whether the explanation is cheating, "SC time eating frustration" or something else is not obvious and I have not accused anyone of cheating. Funny thing, Rambo ask you about your FOW sniffer (indirectly accusing you of cheating) but I only investigated different alternatives. Yet, you jumped on me, not Rambo. You continue to surprise me again and again. It was Rambo who first thought it was fishy, not only me. In the Rambo topic ("Terifgate", Hombre Plin ... Did Terif give Hombre Plin the FOW cheater (YES/NO)" started AFTER my reply here) u gave him a descent reply but here (obviously) I did not deserve one. Since "you are always right" you think you can say whatever. If someone upsets you, "it is their fault". No, Terif it is u being rude here. This paranoia thing "I spread rumours about you" are not rumours. I back it up with facts. Sometimes I am wrong, but 95% of the time I remember it right. Difference is, you are always right and can jump on ppl whenever u get upset. What a privilegue. YES, I do not like you anymore (surprise?!) BUT before your childish drop out of Z-League (do this or else style) I thought u were a descent bloke. Learn to deal with justified issues here on the forum regardless of who starts them, who you are discussing with or whatever intentions you think they have. You threw first blood, not me. [ October 30, 2003, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Originally posted by zappsweden: You threw first blood, not me. IMHO, if we go way back, your rule changes in your league drew 1st blood. But then again you want to make Z-League a competitve one so you changed the rules to make it so. Its your league you have every right to do so. But I don't see why you came here and complained Terif was leaving because of this which he stated. So what??? It is his choice to leave and your choice to make YOUR league as you please. The bottom line is you both can't accept this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted October 30, 2003 Author Share Posted October 30, 2003 Originally posted by Blashy: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by zappsweden: You threw first blood, not me. IMHO, if we go way back, your rule changes in your league drew 1st blood. But then again you want to make Z-League a competitve one so you changed the rules to make it so. Its your league you have every right to do so. But I don't see why you came here and complained Terif was leaving because of this which he stated. So what??? It is his choice to leave and your choice to make YOUR league as you please. The bottom line is you both can't accept this </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted May 24, 2004 Author Share Posted May 24, 2004 Originally posted by jon_j_rambo: I always felt something fishy was going on. Hey Terif, how's that FOW sniffer work? Yeah, tell us now if it was the recently revealed "PBEM Load TCP/IP" sniffer or something else. [ May 23, 2004, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sombra Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Well there is one thing I have learned from this thread accusations always turn dicussions messy. zappsweden Member Member # 9763 posted 18-10-2003 05:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hombre Plin just accused me of cheating. I said I did not believe that cheating was possible in SC and demanded evidence. HE then showed me that cheating IS possible in SC by modifying his MPP to a large number. I was surprised that a program could change a value on one computer and pass that faked value over to the other computer without the other computer noticing it. I have some questions. The strange thing is that these things happen so convenient in time, in a time with no new SC surprises. Rambo now practically points out Terif as a cheater and Terif does not even respond... (he reads every important discussion (he posts too) so he cannot have missed this Rambo reply ) I heard by other players that Hombre Plin says he got the FOW sniffer from Terif. Well Zap: Facts are though far. Hombre Plin has accused YOU off cheating. You have worked it out with him => Hombre Plin was Wrong. You have heard from other players that Hombre Plin has said that Terif has shown him the possibility off the "FOW-Sniffer" or like you put it that gave it to him. WHO were these players? Hombre Plin never made a public statement in this direction. Terif respnded in the threads off Rambo that he never has cheated=> That he doesn´t need to cheat. Rambo and Terif worked it out and play again each other. Now you revive these old rumors and are asking yourself why Terif is jumping all over you :eek: ? I only played two games against Terif and I have to admit I felt humillated afterwards. Up to now he is simply the best player off SC I habe played (Sorry Dragonheart ) He plays regualary at the Panzerliga and shows newbies the ropes. Points out there mistakes and does answer all our questions regarding the fine points off SC. If someone is able is able to predict the looses which will occur before he moves his unit up to the enemy , knows the range off movements and spends attention the small details reports etc. You don´t NEED a FOW Sniffer to predict were are the units moving. It is nice to point out flaws in a competitive game. BUT if the best players nedded nearly two years to find some flaws and I have to admit I think you need a lot off energy to use these flaws than SC is quite good already at the department of cheating. Ever played Civ2 or Civ3 . the lists off things that are forbidden you have to rely on that the other guy is a honest player? Though to all the involved partys pleae drop this subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted May 24, 2004 Author Share Posted May 24, 2004 Kuniworth was the guy who told me that "Hombre said he got a FOW sniffer from Terif". Kuniworth said he got the info from Rambo. Someone in the chain has been lying (unless it is true), so you can think whatever you want. [ May 24, 2004, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted May 24, 2004 Author Share Posted May 24, 2004 Anyway, Sombrero. Adminstrators handle the censorship and banning in this forum, not you. This topic is created and ALIVE. If you do not accept it, head back to Panzerliga and do the preaching there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boninza Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 if there is some cheat, you can to be sure, many people ll use it. only with a fow sniffer you are chanceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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