Looking Ahead -- Replaying PBEM Turns

[Jollyguy]

When I played Panzer General PBEM with anonomous opponents, you kind of got a feel for the ones who replayed turns time and again, until they got an optimum result. Kind of sad if you ask me.

In my opinion, PBEM turns should be played once, and only once. Bad dice spins and surprise contact attempt to simulate the fog of war, and that things don't always go as planned. I also don't think one should be allowed to probe, then say "Undo Move." That's bogus if you ask me. I plan on doing my turns once, like chess. Once I've "removed" my hand, the turn cannot be taken. back.

The fog of war will be a key element in the Atlantic, as the German subs will need that injection of realism to have any chance against the Allied navy. And an experienced player will already know where many units are anyway, at least at the outset. I.e., as a German I'm not sending my armor deep into France the first turn, because I know there's Allied units there, even though I can't see them.

So, I would like to propose Scouts honor on this board; you play your PBEM turn once, and only once, with not "Undo Moves" and take your lumps. In the long run good luck cancels bad, and what's left is how good you are. If I suspect a PBEM opponent is cheating, I will probably just stop the game.

Good Luck

[Aloid]

Hey Jolly,

I'm in for that! Would be interesting if files were somehow controlled by a central site, and the game pulled from that site, keeping track of "how many" times the file got pulled.

If the game can only access it once, it would remove this non-sense.

BFC could be that source site...

Hubert, is that in your bag of tricks?

Aloid

[Gregory Barnard]

tcp/ip connectivity should go a long way in ensuring head-to-head-like competition (with UNDO option disabled for serious play). Looking forward to it...

[BloodyBucket]

The idea of a central clearing house for PBEM turns is an interesting one.

Any system can be hacked, so I guess it is up to the old integrity method.

[Fubarno]

I'm PBEMing a game called Age of Wonders 2 (don't laugh, it's a fun, deep strategy game) which informs players if their adversary has restarted the game at any time during their turn. Is this something that could be added as a patch into the code of SC? I probably won't be able to organize a tcp/ip connection very often, if at all, so I will rely on PBEM to face opponents.

Not having to rely on the honor system in a blood-thirsty head to head struggle is Preferable.

[ July 28, 2002, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Fubarno ]

[gorski]

First of all, I agree with you guys. Second, don't accuse someone of cheating until you have played the game quite a bit vs humans. There is a lot to learn before you really understand the game. It's kind of like 'Axis & Allies'. On the surface, beer and pretzel game, but underneath you have a game where a novice can't beat an expert more than 1 game out of 10 with luck. Third, I often click somewhere by mistake and removing the undo option could really screw up a game. You already can't undo a move that gains you any infromation, that's enough for me as long as the naval cheat/undo scouting gets fixed somehow.

Gorski

[Aloid]

Originally posted by gorski:

First of all, I agree with you guys. Second, don't accuse someone of cheating until you have played the game quite a bit vs humans. There is a lot to learn before you really understand the game. It's kind of like 'Axis & Allies'. On the surface, beer and pretzel game, but underneath you have a game where a novice can't beat an expert more than 1 game out of 10 with luck. Third, I often click somewhere by mistake and removing the undo option could really screw up a game. You already can't undo a move that gains you any infromation, that's enough for me as long as the naval cheat/undo scouting gets fixed somehow.

Gorski

Agreed, but I've known people who do this, and don't think it's cheating... I've watched them cheat like this first hand...

Needless to say, I don't play PBEM with them, and luckily I don't game with them anymore at all...

Aloid

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

There is only one way to produce an effective deterent to cheating in a game of intellectual skill.

Let it be publicly proudly and decidedly known, that only a moron, a person totally convinced of their own inferiority, someone too stupid to play the game honestly, an individual that has no respect for their own skill let alone anothers, a gamer that would rather win, even if they themselves will never know the thrill they bested you for real, would ever do something like endlessly replay a turn till it went their way.

We all do the "replay thing" when playing against the AI I suspect, but when against a thinking person, to cheat, especially in something such as a wargame, well you have in advance already insulted yourself far better than I ever will be capable of.

I don't fear cheaters. Let them cheat. If it becomes "odd" that they never lose when normally they would (at least to some extent), the only logical choice is to move on (and say nothing to them either).

A person that won't feel any regret from cheating, is beyond reach, and thus is not worthy of an honest opponents scorn (they won't register it, so why get all hot and bothered trying to make them see what they have done eh).

I would like to see game designers always strive to incorporate safeguards into the game though. The games played pointlessly while we discover the cretins among us, will only harm the game in the eyes of the players. Negativity will kill a game, and that is a bad thing in the eyes of someone trying to sell it.

[BloodyBucket]

Interesting feature in that "Age of Wonders" game. I "wonder" if it would take "ages" for Hubert to stick that in SC?

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1b:

I don't fear cheaters. Let them cheat. If it becomes "odd" that they never lose when normally they would (at least to some extent), the only logical choice is to move on (and say nothing to them either).

Sounds like a man who will live to a serene old age, smiling & singing all the way.

A victory is never a victory if you have to cheat to achieve it.

We have to be careful however, because there are a few who are very dedicated and adroit game players, and to yell foul out loud would be a selfish mistake.

Someone once said that all a man has is his reputation, his good name, so I agree that to cry about losing is in a certain sense, even worse than losing itself. You may well be mistaken.

Everyone -- except Sociopaths, has a conscience, and to keep your own cool, your own satisfaction at being an honest and straight-shooting person is far more important than winning at a game.

Cheating only diminishes the cheater, that's apparent. I will believe that EVERY person I play is honest. Nothing anyone can say will change my mind. Because I won't listen.

Let the FUN, the SC games begin!

[Hubert Cater]

I think the newly added PBEM replay and the 'Disabling Undo Move' option should help somewhat in detering PBEM cheating. With the PBEM replay, it is not an option, so basically everytime you want to reload the game, you will be forced to watch your opponents last turn over and over again, and with some of these replays seeming to last about 5 minutes or more when games get really advanced, it can be quite annoying when abused (I had to test it!). By disabling 'Undo Move' you won't be able to use your naval units like pinwheels to discover your enemy units on the same turn, but would have to reload and this is where the non optional PBEM replay comes into play.

Now is this perfect, not at all and it is in no way THE methed employed by me to deter PBEM cheating, it's just a few additions to make it less attractive. I will be adding in a PBEM reload counter to let you know how many times your opponent reloaded their turn, but even with this, unfortunatly there are always ways around it.

Hubert

[Bruce70]

Good news Hubert. The real problem with having no safeguards against cheating is that secretly everyone suspects everyone else of cheating. It isn't good for morale.

[windstarz]

I ran into some cheaters also while playing Panzer General but you can usually tell pretty quickly because they always get very good results especially in critical attacks. The only problem was sometimes I had to reload myself because the game crashed occasionally. You cant stop cheaters but you can avoid them. And also some players think that if they ever lose they must have been cheated so it can work both ways. I am very experienced at losing so it doesnt bother me alot. But if I see blatant cheating I just avoid the player from then on.

[J Wagner]

Guys, I never PBEM'd before and this is the first game that I would seriously consider it since I can't find Third Reich opponents anymore. Can someone provide a short primer on how PBEM works, where to find players, how you actually play the game ect. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Sol Invictus]

I'm with you Wagner, I never have PBEM; never thought it would be any fun. I will certainly want to play TP/ICP head to head. I think that would be a blast. If I PBEM until that is doable, I solemnly swear never to cheat in any way. I despise cheaters. I could never understand how anyone could derive satisfaction by cheating. Playing this game against a breathing human will be so much fun.

[Sol Invictus]

Make that TCP/IP, DOH!

[windstarz]

J Wagner,

Pbem is very easy . You just do your turn. The computer creates a file in the pbem folder. YOu send it as an attachment to your opponent who downloads it into the pbem folder. Repeat until the game ends. I am sure you will be able to find players right here on this forum. Plus game clubs will form or add SC to their game list and you will have plenty of opponents to choose from.