SC, 3rd Reich, & some Rambo-ling comments

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

Anyone got any practical experience with Russian Front.

I prefer it over Russian Campaign (I have a copy of Russian Campaign as well though).

I too pity no board gaming experiences persons that only have PC gaming experiences.

I have seen some nice computer games, but nothing will ever completely rival the pleasure of a board game.

PC only gamers I suspect would not even know what I am referring to when I speak of the "meta game" in a gaming experience.

[DeGaule]

Both 3R and A3R were Great Games that allowed many players a chance to transition from simpler games to a more complex level of Strategic Gaming. The unique multi-player dynamic that a Game of 3Reich created around a table was really cool`: Ach So!!! Benito! What do yu mean Italy is neutral??

Si Si Adolf! maybe next turn!

While on the Old Days kick...all of you guys who love Alternate History would have had a lot of fun with : Tomorrow the World. a nice quick-paced game with a weird premise: The Axis won and split the world between them and in 1949 Imperial Japan, alarmed at the racist and agressive Policy of the Reich launch a Global attack on its Ex-partners.

Dream on that one a little!

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1b:

Anyone got any practical experience with Russian Front.

I prefer it over Russian Campaign (I have a copy of Russian Campaign as well though).

I well remember Russian Front, it was a great game, much more complex and dynamic than the Russian Campaign. But each had it's own. RC could be played in a night and RF took longer.

You are right on about PC only gamers not knowing the fun of the old "Beer & Pretzel" games as Avalon hill called them.

We used to get four people playing TSR/SPI's ETO, we had a russian, a german, an italian, and a french/american. Made for some great times. The only PC game we played was Colonial Conquest for the old C-64. Anyone remember that one? LOL

The PC games are much different than those old board games. Some will never know the joy of "Prep Fire Phase." Or the fustration of stacking 3 squads, a leader, a MMG, 2 LMG, a half dozen panzerfausts and a couple anti-tank magnetic mines under a concealment counter. And then knocking it over.

I like the way SC can similuate the old board games with the hex grid and such. Very nice touch there.

Of course with the PC games you don't have to worry about the cat attacking your setup over night.

-dave

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Konstatin V Kotelnikov:

Of course with the PC games you don't have to worry about the cat attacking your setup over night.

LOL! Happened to me more than once, as well.

What is it with cats where they like to upset the usual routine of the humans? It's almost as if they say to themselves: "Hmmm, let's see if I can disturb all this arbitrary Order, and thereby remind the Human that he is really only tolerated... in MY world -- haphazard Nature."

Yeah, those old board-games... two of my favorites were Afrka Korps and War at Sea, both by Avalon Hill. Unlike Third Reich or A3R, you could set them up and play a complete game in just a few days.

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

Anyone here familiar with Columbia Games at all?

http://www.columbiagames.com/index2.html

Now these guys no how to make a great game, that has all you can ask for in realistically do able Fog of War effects, small counter density, modest sized boards, and heck you can play a game and not get a year old in the process heheh.

Sadly the one thing PC gamers are missing, the one truely great aspect of gaming, computers can never recreate, is the social environment.

My buddy sitting behind a German flag playing the Germans, while I sit behind Union Jack or some other allied banner. Boasting and strutting and mimicing (or assuming we were mimicing) the people and nations of the time. "Prepare to die Russian subhuman scum!!" "Bring in on you syphilitic nazi swine!!".

Watching closely each dice roll, hoping that he rolls that one roll that will have him screaming blue murder at his rotten luck.

Re reading a manual and realising "hey we read that wrong", "awwwww crapola now that ruins my whole strategic plan!!".

Developing game plans, looking for the perfect move that would ensure I was better than he was.

In many cases, computers are a convenience, an ends to a means. Sure they can do somethings board games couldn't, but that argument falls flat when I say board games can do some things computer games can't.

I suppose I was lucky as a young adult, I wargamed all the time, and I didn't have to surf the net to find an opponent.

[SeaWolf_48]

Very good comments Rambo, I see that you are an experienced strategy gamer. I agree with all your comments, and would like to add: 1) ships and planes should not be able to completely destroy ground units. 2) battleships and fighters should not be able to destroy subs, only cruiser and bombers doubling as ASW units. 3) Tripoli had a port(alot of Italian shipping was sunk by Malta going there), and where the heck is Corsica?

4) Countries should be able to give MPPs to each other. The Port Angel Murmansk supply route should be produced, then Brittan and America could send Mpps to Russia. They (Russia) have too many in the game by themselves. The Allies should suffer alittle to give them supplies. 5) The rocket units don't do much, by both Germany and the allies used seige artillery against forts, create one artty per major power.

This is a great game and I have waited a long time for this to be produced. Thanks to all involved. SeaWolf_48

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

You guys familiar with "Civil War"? That was an absolute blast & still selling today.

I think that one came out about six or seven years ago for Windows 3.1. It allowed for amphibous operations and naval blockades.

Troops were organized into brigades, divisions, corps and armies with their own generals who were promoted as they gained experience. They could also be trained and some commanders were better at that than others. A commander good at training his troops wasn't necessarily a good leader in battle, and visa-versa -- an excellent game feature!

George B. McClellan in hand tinted photograph. In the spirit of the age he affects a Napoleonic pose. A great organizer and brilliant strategist, he was also a mediocre field commander and the supreme egotist -- a letter to his wife after the Battle of Antitum, "...those whose opinions I value most say my handling of the affair was magnificent!" Also 1864 presidential candidate and later the Governor of my own New Jersey. It figures.

Other nice points included the option of issueing different grades of weapons to your troops and having weapons captured when your troops lost a battle.

Really good game; Confederates had better generals, cavalry and overal fighting edge in first two years, Union had everything else! It's unfortunate the comparatively minor problems were never adequately corrected.

Unfortunately plagued with bugs, though. The original version allowed things like prompting the Union plater to build riverine units in places like Pittsburgh, then, when they were finished you couldn't move them out because the river wasn't navigable. Other times riverine units would be caught in some sort of loop along with the troops they were carrying; they'd go up and down the same river without completing their assigned mission.

Those problems were solved by patches, a later bug had the Union running out of supplies in the middle of the war, an absurd situation as it had many times more than it could needed or could even distribute! I understand SSI has the game now and has a downloadable free patch that takes care of the Union Supply glitch.

There were other flaws involving generals not being able to find nearby city locations and reacting strangely in areas like Petersburg Virginia -- Union troops at Norfolk and coming down out of Strasburg W.Virginia had problems, for some reason, orienting themselves while attempting to cut Richmond off from the rest of the Confederacy.

Unfortunately I can't get it to run properly on Windows XP . The map appears in a very small box with nearly all the screen blank.

If we're taling about the same game, the last time I saw it selling was a couple of years back as part of a Civil War pack. It was a later version but still had the Union Supply glitch and the disoriented generals problem.

It ought to be reissued in a glitch-free and updated version that runs perfectly on Windows XP. I'm sure a whole new generation of wargamers would like it as much as we do.

[ December 12, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[J Wagner]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1b:

Anyone here familiar with Columbia Games at all?

http://www.columbiagames.com/index2.html

Now these guys no how to make a great game, that has all you can ask for in realistically do able Fog of War effects, small counter density, modest sized boards, and heck you can play a game and not get a year old in the process heheh.

Sadly the one thing PC gamers are missing, the one truely great aspect of gaming, computers can never recreate, is the social environment.

My buddy sitting behind a German flag playing the Germans, while I sit behind Union Jack or some other allied banner. Boasting and strutting and mimicing (or assuming we were mimicing) the people and nations of the time. "Prepare to die Russian subhuman scum!!" "Bring in on you syphilitic nazi swine!!".

Watching closely each dice roll, hoping that he rolls that one roll that will have him screaming blue murder at his rotten luck.

Re reading a manual and realising "hey we read that wrong", "awwwww crapola now that ruins my whole strategic plan!!".

Developing game plans, looking for the perfect move that would ensure I was better than he was.

In many cases, computers are a convenience, an ends to a means. Sure they can do somethings board games couldn't, but that argument falls flat when I say board games can do some things computer games can't.

I suppose I was lucky as a young adult, I wargamed all the time, and I didn't have to surf the net to find an opponent.

Does their East Front computer game have an AI? It mentions solitaire play but I was wondering if it is simply like WIF.

[JerseyJohn]

J Wagner

"Sadly the one thing PC gamers are missing, the one truely great aspect of gaming, computers can never recreate, is the social environment."

True enough and I really miss those guys. But I also remember entire years of not playing a single wargame for lack of opponents. Then there was the "all thumbs" opponent who could be counted on to knock over six or seven stacks of units with each move!

I enjoyed that entry someone added a ton of postings back about the cat jumping on his map overnight.

In the sixties my family had a cat the size of a cougar that didn't bother to wait till we'd left, it just galloped across the room and lept! -- With hours of playtime lost and innumerable dozens of cardboard counters scattered all across the floor, he'd sit on the map mewing, expecting to be loved. The weird part was I'd always pat his head and give him long strokes down his spine saying "Bad Cat!" while he purred and licked my hand.

Cat lovers will forgive almost anything their pets do. That same feline would jump on the desk and straddle the keyboard of my manual typewriter till I paid sufficient attention to him. Then his tail would go up as though to say I was being annoying, and he'd leap off to bother someone else.

[ December 12, 2002, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

I have no experience Wagner with a computer East Front, I am not even aware of it being the same game in truth.

I know that to computerise board game East Front though, seems a tad pointless. The beauty of East Front (the board game) lies in its actual design as a board game. I don't think I would care to play a computer version of it.

It's a simple easy to play board game basically (although it has a rules manual, but manuals are not a hassle to me). Low counter density, modest size map the features normally not found in good board wargames.

As a computer game, it would just seem to be to basic to be exciting, I would think. Only reason for computer, is to make a hard to play game easier to play isn't it?

[RicKhan]

Every saturday i meet with a group of gamers to play board wargames. Recently it has been "War Between the States", with modified rules.

I agree that the social interaction of gaming can be minimal when using a computer as the platform. But then everything has a price.

Humans being what they are tend to bring to the table habits that some of us wish to leave behind or not. Example Smoking, drinking, cussing, farting, superior attitutes, freakish behavior, lack of sanity and sanitation, ect. The computer is just plain moronic as an opponent. So we as gamers are probaly the most tolerate of all humans, which is why we look forward to killing these cardboard or electronic pieces, and breaking the will of our fellow gamers.

Nothing in this life is Free, That is why i'm Infantry!

[jon_j_rambo]

RicKhan --- "Rack 'em", nice post RicKhan. Keep preaching that head-to-head play. AI doesn't count. Humans do all kinds of different things. That's what made Squad Leader/Cross of Iron/C. of Doom/GI Anvil of Victory great.

Far as my table behavior: beer, pretzels, & the winning attitude.

Rambo >>>>>>>>> Grandmaster of SC

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

RicKhan, man your post was a chuckle though, but yes a computer does tend to eliminate a few things that have negative worth.

I love to play roleplaying games in addition to wargames, but man I detest penis envy stat worshiping small ego gamers with a passion some days. The sort that absolutely must have the most powerful center of attention PC in the session.

You sure eliminate that easy on Everquest.

I don't have as much trouble with wargames, but I have had to make unfortunate painful choices where smoking is concerned.

Sorry smokers, but your "need to smoke" IS second to my need for smoke free air. Kill yourself where it won't hurt someone else while you do it.

Of all the reasons for playing on a computer, fresh air is a very definite plus.

[Hueristic]

Wow Finding this place and Reading these posts got me to reminising. went down cellar looking for an old european theatre game from an austrialian company. Think it The Company was called Panther. Be damned if i can remember the games name . Couldn't find it but it was the best one of it's kind i had seen back in EGA days. But i did find my old Diplomacy on 5 1/4. Now i gotta go hunt out a drive to load it. Lol

Nice to see a game without Eye candy can still gather a following. I've played SC for about a week now and Am lookin for some human competition. So if there is a Challenge board setup here. Or better Yet a LAdder system (Something like Civfanatics would be nice). Count Me in.

And thanks again for the reminders of games gone by. The days of Wakeing up with a new stategy for Squad Commander was almost lost in time .

[DeGaule]

:mad:

I wish to Post for the record, that when my Boss hands me a letter of reprimand on monday mornig for having come to work late...with red eyes and frumpy slept-in clothes IT GOING TO BE ALL YOUR FAULT !!

All those posting about board games got me to dust-up my copy of 3reich( YES its still complete, and NO Im not selling it), phone 4 of my old University palls and we are right now in the middle of a weekend long Full Game. :cool:

Here's to cold pizza, warm beer and Germany rolling a double 1 while trying to kick me out of Malta!!!!

[Brian Rock]

Originally posted by Hueristic:

Went down cellar looking for an old european theatre game from an austrialian company. Think it The Company was called Panther. Be damned if i can remember the games name

Panther Games is still in business. They did Airborne Assault, also sold by Battlefront.

AA is a great game, by the way, with a use of real-time that works very well with the concept.

[VictorH]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1b:

Anyone here familiar with Columbia Games at all?

http://www.columbiagames.com/index2.html

Now these guys no how to make a great game, that has all you can ask for in realistically do able Fog of War effects, small counter density, modest sized boards, and heck you can play a game and not get a year old in the process heheh.

Sadly the one thing PC gamers are missing, the one truely great aspect of gaming, computers can never recreate, is the social environment.

My buddy sitting behind a German flag playing the Germans, while I sit behind Union Jack or some other allied banner. Boasting and strutting and mimicing (or assuming we were mimicing) the people and nations of the time. "Prepare to die Russian subhuman scum!!" "Bring in on you syphilitic nazi swine!!".

Watching closely each dice roll, hoping that he rolls that one roll that will have him screaming blue murder at his rotten luck.

Re reading a manual and realising "hey we read that wrong", "awwwww crapola now that ruins my whole strategic plan!!".

Developing game plans, looking for the perfect move that would ensure I was better than he was.

In many cases, computers are a convenience, an ends to a means. Sure they can do somethings board games couldn't, but that argument falls flat when I say board games can do some things computer games can't.

I suppose I was lucky as a young adult, I wargamed all the time, and I didn't have to surf the net to find an opponent.

Yea Les, I've played Quebec 1759(love it) so many times the box is beginning to fall apart(also I've played it now for many, many years). It was the first boardgame I played that had written movement orders executed simultaneously.

[ December 15, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: VictorH ]

[Henri]

Originally posted by Andre Bolkonsky:

Nice recap of Avalon Hill, John. You did leave out one point.

Out of that list, in terms of sheer fun and replayability, The Russian Campaign was the best Russian Front tabletop game I've ever played.

Just my humble opinion.

It is not only your opinion. An opinion poll a few years ago (I forget where) on the all-time best wargame of all time showed "The Russian Campaign" was number one by a considerable margin.A poll today might still show the same result, although there are fewer and fewer people who have played the game.

Personally I played the game to death and I still have an issue of Avalon Hill's magazine "the General" with an article discussing the best strategies. I also have a half-dozen AARs of my games that I typed out in the good old days.

Henri

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

There is only one way to know a game is great, look at the condition of the pieces.

My Rommel in the Desert by Columbia games has a lot of wear on it. But the most wear of any game I have goes to my game of Up Front.

The cards are worn, the personel cards are worn, the manual is real worn, the box is good and scuffed. It was the only game anyone ever wanted to borrow too.

[Brian Rock]

Originally posted by Henri:

An opinion poll a few years ago (I forget where) on the all-time best wargame of all time showed "The Russian Campaign" was number one by a considerable margin.

More Aussie trivia: "The Russian Campaign" was designed by John Edwards in Melbourne and originally published by his company Jedco.

I played the original version with Mace (from the CM boards) back in the 1970s. He kicked my ass in TRC then as easily as he does in other wargames now.

[jon_j_rambo]

Hello people in this thread: Thanks for all the war stories.

I have a question: What are all the PC-wargames I can buy that are like the goldie old games. Example: Third Reich = SC, Squad Leader = ?, Civil War = ?, Pacific War = ?, Conquistador = ?, etc.

I'm talking about the PC-games that require the thinking of the oldies.

Thanks in advance,

Rambo

P.S. This has become another legendary thread.

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

Well frankly if you like SC more power to ya, each to their own, it isn't even close to Third Reich yet though, but some day maybe SC2 will be in spitting range.

Now if you want a Squad Leader/Advanced Squad Leader or even maybe Panzerblitz type game, you want Steel Panthers, play em all before you conclude that Steel Panthers WaW 7.1 is the best though eh. Steel Panthers 3 Brigade Combat matches up nicely with Panzerblitz scale gaming.

Pacific War (I am assuming you mean that monster boardgame) is best matched against Uncommon Valour currently (although I am not sure UV goes all the way up the Grand Strategy scale).

Columbia Games has the only Civil War games I know of to recommend. They ain't software though, but I still recommend them eh.

Century of Warfare doesn't fit any of your pigeon holes Rambo, but it belongs on this post that's for sure.

[ December 16, 2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Les the Sarge 9-1b ]

[Brian Rock]

I think the closest thing to Conquistadore (which I agree was a classic) I can think of is EU and EU2. There was some other game called "Conquest of the New World" or somesuch but I believe it wasn't very good, nor quite early enough to compare with Conquistadore.

[bloodstar]

Well, I'm sitting here looking at a whole horde of Boardgames. Ranging from Fortress America and Axis and Allies, to NATO, WWII:ETO (which I still think is one of the best games I've ever played, and I would buy a computerized version of it repeatedly in thanks....). I like SC, and I really really enjoyed Clash of Steel, (in fact I have a machine at my house I still use to play the game).

But I wish more people knew about WWII:ETO.

[jon_j_rambo]

Conquistadore (spelling), Yes! Somebody that has played that classic. Spain, England, France, & Portugal discover the New World. Go for the gold cities early, grab gold mines, make discoveries for victory points, then later in the game it's off to war & farm for money.

Spain --- You had the land leaders & could travel in the Jungles, thus Conquistadore!

England --- Nice pirate raiders

France --- Lots of cash

Portugal --- nice balance country.

This game would be awesome on TCP/IP for 4-players. Very simple combat & rules. You send messages both private & public for treaties, deals, etc.

Hey, is there any 4-player online games that are "old-school"?

Rambo