DeGaule

Wow! this brings back wonderful memories of multi-players games of 3rd Reich...I suddenly have a taste for some cold pizza and lukewarm Coca-cola!! Your right about the great fun to be had on multi-players sessions its hard to beat. Just bypass Rome indeed!!!! And that french admiral must have been a secret nazi-sympathizer.....have him shot. Why else is the french navy there but to help crush the axis naval power and thus gain valuable time and security for Britain while waiting for the war in the east to start. great post !

This is really getting fun isnt it? Just a couple of quick points in reply to JJ and all the others. I truly didnt mean to minimise the german's para contribution in Holland and Belgium. But...while we are on this subject..the fall of the Fortress of Eben Amel was a brilliant little "coup de main" I agree but that Fortress was 1) terribly vulnerable to air approach from lack of sufficient AA turrets and guns. 2) its garrison was understaffed when it was assaulted, wich prevented its commanders from trying any serious "sorties" to repel the german para-engeneers when they had gained acces to the inner perimeter and last but not least 3) like its french big cousins on the Maginot line. Many of the guns and emplacement where dummies. ( a fact that the german troops certainly appreciated a hell of a lot more than the belgian defenders ) . Well executed but still involving a relativly low nimber of troops. It was more of a large airborne commando raid than anything else. Someone also reply to me that any "strategic" uses of Airborne troops was a mistake because it was not cost effective. This one really has me puzzled....Ok you spend 3 times the normal thime to train and a superior body of troops, you equip them with some of your best weapons, than you train and deploy the assets necessary to be able to transport these "elite" units and now you want to restrain their use to a purely tactical one ? where is the cost effectiveness in that??? Crete wich just about everyone agree was a good operation was a "strategic" target. It was as a matter of fact the only value of Crete . Market_Garden for all its fault in planning and execution was a Strategic Operation too. Yes it failed in a spectacular manner but how much of the blame for that can be laid on the IDEA of Market-garden and how much on MONTY and its staff of sycophant( rivaled only by MacArthur and his famed Batann gang)has been made pretty well clear in the post-war years. We have to take the game with its limitations. Even talking about a 3div sized Corp, The German could not have fielded, equipped and transport such a force considering the strain already put by the war on their limited air transport assets. The Italians??? come on guys !! lets be serious they would have needed to use Flyingboats and converted airliners to even move one divisions....and how would thet have escorted it to the target they didnt have a single high-performance fighter with enough range to be an escort before the latter stage of the war they couldnt even properly escort their bombers when they tried to help during the battle of Britain . It would have been a slaughter without german help. Lets face it if we put Airbornes in, it has to be an allied thing, as a rocket replacemnt is probably the best idea Ive read about it. Now we can all have some fun trying to argue the same points about MARINES. I can hardly wait . Gee I said I was going to be short didnt I ?? Oups!!

Hi! Mind if I put in my two cents worth.....no...good! This whole paratroops/Airborne debate is moot as long as the game scale stay as it is. Only the Allied 18th Airborne (British-American) would be represented under the actual scale. The German Paratroopers( a misleading appelation since many of their specialized units were glider-borne ) performed well in some very difficult missions but to say that only the German knew how to employ paratroops during WW2 is more than a little strech Granted that the Attack on poor little Netherland was a spectacular success for them, still, attacking the Dutch army was not exactly like trying to seize London. The quality of the opposing force must be taken into account . The Pyrhic Victory in crete showed that some months later. Yes the forced the Brit to evacuate and thus secured the Aegan sea from furhet allied interference but the cost in troops, planes and pilots also brought to light how vulnerable these units really could be . On the Allied side Russian airborne units were actually used with some measure of success for seizing and protecting important river crossings during counter-offensive operations on the Eastern Front. That the operations were not full success should not detract from the Good strategic planning that went into their uses. In the west , airborne operations inthe Med(silicy-Italy) were if not outright disaster, at the very least less than success) But the d-day landings, were useful even as messed-up and confused as they ended-up to be. The Market_Garden fiasco is another thing entirely. The idea of a "Grand ,Strategic" Airborne operation to open the door of Germany was not in itself a bad idea. The plan itself was !! That it had been drawn up by the Overblown Monty ( who apparently could no longer read a map after all these month lost fighting in the desert) should have been reason enough to stop the operation. :mad: Unfortunatly, politics got in the way too and the Airbones were sent into an impossible situasion , into wich they actually performed well. As for the comment about Dien Bien Phu in the later years. In Indochina, the french used their Paras as an elite unit , composed of professionnal career soldiers,they were sent to every difficult area, to secure and pacify( the peace of the machine-pistol, I know!! ). The basic idea was again a good one,it had been used in other area and worked well , 1st penetrate deep into ennemy controlled area, then establish a Firebase then useyour good mobility to patrol and interdict ennemy supply route and force them to either vacate the area or be forced into a battle and destroyed( it would still be in use years later by the US SpecForces and Marines by the way) the geographic emplacement of the Firebase( too far from most french Tactical Airbases) , the low number of heavy weapons brought in( especially artillery) and the insufficient air support that prevented the Paras from being able to clear the oulying ridges and hills doomed the Garnison. ( And they didnt even need Monty to draw this bad plan ! Of course they had french general, professionnal war-losers, that helped)

Id say its slow but on the topic of advance speed anyone else notice the Russian's incredibly FAST adavance ?? Ive attacked Russia in May 41 and Im facing a country with Industrail Tech 2( the russians!!!) and Jet level 1 already. it would be more or less logical if they had spend there MPP pool to achieve that but NO! it huge. Something just doesnt feel right when a country can apply Scorched Earth on its own territory while replacing whole armies in the field and still lead the world in tecnology development speed. By the time I get to Moscow they also add Heavy Tanks 1 Make no Mistake, Im still kicking THEM out of Moscow and Leningrad and sitting in Grozny but Im getting tired of seeing the RED ARMY wich should be a bunch of demoralized straggler on the run by this time, be a modern and determined heavy force in the OURAL and along the Turkish Border. What are they suddenly..All Kurds or something ?? And does Turkey ever get involved ? I driven the Russina to there border 3 times all in 1942 to early 43 and they never even mobilized...seems to me they would really have jumped at the chance to get rid of the Red Menace? Ok enough ranting....back to Christmas morning now Have a great holiday everyone

I agree that the Polish Air Force, when relocated to Britain should not surrender, especially considering the number of Polish pilots that flew to France then later to Britain to continue the fight. As for the French troops in Belgium there is a simple explanation.....its called..Obeying to the orders of their Government . It is a lot harder for units so close to their country to seriously consider mass disobediance than for far away Colonial units or Garrison. And that crack about the "surrendering to any old woman with a lof of bread" hurts...would it not also apply to one General Sharp on Mindanao after all surrendering a fully supplied and attouched corp of more that 30000 troops to "a radio broadcast" . he didnt even neede an old lady.

Fellows. JerseyJohn is right ! The fact that this man has a signature that really can make most other people's blood boil is quite beside the point. He is entitle to his views and certainly as almost any other soldier of any other country he also has every right to feel some pride at having served his country and having survived this terrible war. The fact that he was serving a Vile Regime that will most probably forever mark the german nation with a black mark is irrelevant. If we condemn in in our forum for that , then we will have to do it for every Frenchmen too because of what the French army did in its numerous colonial conflicts or every canadian for the numerous execution of "escaping prisonner" that took place during the liberation of France and the Low Countries...or every american for the well documented Vietnam era atrocities...and so on and so forth...It will never end. Ill probably never be able to like this man,and Ill certainly never like what he at one time defended. Ive lost family in Dieppe and in the Pacific. But its not in me to "Flame Him" for that he is no more responsable for his country,s act then we are for ours. Lets all agree to finish this thing now...In the spirit of Christmas Ill even try to start liking Rambo too

It's a missconception to say that France had neglected its bomber fleet. Like most Air-Force of the mid-30's in Europe, The "Armée de l'Air" had concentrated its planning and construction on various type of aircraft that could be roughly separated into 2 large overall categories, Bombers and Interceptors. What really hurt the Bomber fleet was more a question of its use than of its potential. the fleet was by and arge made up or relativly modern designs(too many designs in fact) but too little had been done to provide an efficient Command&Control apparatus and also reconnaissance and target determination were sadly lacking . These last points mainly due to the influence of that Italian Imbecile , Douet, who had convince almost all of Europe that Terror bombing of civilian population with fire and gas weapons would be the future of warfare in Europe France Bombers, almost all of the medium-range class, were sacrificed in piecemeal low-level attacks on heavily defended ground targets , ports, bridges railyards, etc..such targets being chosen mainly because the High Command quickly lost the reconaissance battle had had at best a very foggy idea of where and how strong the ennemy was. The Bombers should have been carefully preserved and used to harass and slow down the German mechanised colums..but that of course is historical insight. All in all, for a much maligned Air Force, with seriuos High Command troubles, the Armée de l'Air performed quite well and mostly died in the Air, taking a sizeable chunk of the Luftwaffe's ressource . Its unfortunable that all the other failling of France quite often mask the valor shown by its pilots

You know Rambo....while there is something to be said for being confident and even "cocky", perhaps you might just tone it down a little. To read your post , one gets the impression that you've got Guderian's brain , have been gifted with Patton's flair for the battlefield and inherited Zuikov's strategic genius We never meet, we've never played against each other, hell until I started reading this forum I didnt even knew you existed and yet, I find myself wishing you'd loose !?! How extraordinary is that ! I have not problem with being proud of your winnings and/or contributions to the game but the way you constantly challenge people,and pose as the King of the Hill is surprisingly irritant, my sister the shrink would probably ascribe this to a latent Napoleon complex. When you finally meet your better...and please dont be arrogant enough not to admit that it will happened at some point, it might be fun for you to have a few people be sympathetic instead of having just about the entire forum community Rise up in a huge cheer, celebrating the fall of Humpty Dumpty from the wall. Arrogance usually lead to Stalingrad...some people just enjoy a longer route there. I now close the hatch of my Char Lourd 1bis and prepare to ride out the heavy artillery barrage that is almost sure to start falling.

:mad: I wish to Post for the record, that when my Boss hands me a letter of reprimand on monday mornig for having come to work late...with red eyes and frumpy slept-in clothes IT GOING TO BE ALL YOUR FAULT !! All those posting about board games got me to dust-up my copy of 3reich( YES its still complete, and NO Im not selling it), phone 4 of my old University palls and we are right now in the middle of a weekend long Full Game. :cool: Here's to cold pizza, warm beer and Germany rolling a double 1 while trying to kick me out of Malta!!!!

Great Post Jersey John I enjoyed readingyour "fleshing out" of my original answer and re-learned quite a few long forgotten details . I tip my hat to you Sir... Your a very gifted writer who's style and use of anecdotes and illustrations makes for enjoyable and informative posting...that is of course when your not into one of your periodic anti-britton rant But even then its hard for the french-canadian in me to get really angry at you

The main reason was that General Franco had let both germany and Italy know pretty early on that Spain was in no condition to get involved in any kind of serious conflict, barely recuperating from its ong Civil war. add to that the fact that for some weird reason, Spain was more or less considered by the Axis to be an Italian domain,( similar to how the Finns were viewed in Italy as being in Germany,s sphere of influence) Hitler in the beginning was making a lot of effort to please Mussolini . Bullying poor bankcrupted Spain would have been bad policy in this reguard. Hitler might alos have been influence by the fact that the Spaniards always had been fiercely protective of their border and might have created all kind of hardship for a Foreign army. If you wonder why I keep saying Hitler instead of Germany, please remember that what little Foreign Policy Ministry there was in Germany had the time ( never a big priority in most Police State) was completly penetrated by the Nazi party apparatus....soon after the Anschuls , what little divergent opinions there were almost vanished completly.

Both 3R and A3R were Great Games that allowed many players a chance to transition from simpler games to a more complex level of Strategic Gaming. The unique multi-player dynamic that a Game of 3Reich created around a table was really cool`: Ach So!!! Benito! What do yu mean Italy is neutral?? Si Si Adolf! maybe next turn! While on the Old Days kick...all of you guys who love Alternate History would have had a lot of fun with : Tomorrow the World. a nice quick-paced game with a weird premise: The Axis won and split the world between them and in 1949 Imperial Japan, alarmed at the racist and agressive Policy of the Reich launch a Global attack on its Ex-partners. Dream on that one a little!

About that 3rd most powerfull ally stuff....no offense , I admire the Finns for the hardship they faced and the courage they showed in combat against the Red Army but there could be a little debate as too wheter Rumania, a country wich actually participated in the Invasion of the USSR could not also pretend to this title. After all, the Rumanian army, even led by one of the most imcompetent bunch of Officers the World has ever seen (outside of Italy and France of course who were just "Out of this world") did manage to register more than a few success( short-lived I know..I know !! ). As for the Air Force question. yes its true the Finnish Air Force quality and determination came as a huge surprise to the Red Army, but in the great scheme of things it still had only a very minor influence. Sweden,s air force while basically untested and unchallenged was both more recent in equipment and more numerous. Its not unreasonnable to show then as more powerful. Comparisons are always dangerous and often less than satisfying in the abstract, but until someone invent a time machine and let us actually go back and experience the actual events..we are stuck with the abstract...makes for some nice lively debates , that,s a fun fringe benefit.

Ouch !! Looks to me like you learned the hard way a lesson that many old "Third Reich" players learned soooo many years ago. : Germany cannot afford to get involve in a 2 front war that early in the WAR. As or Russia...of course a ruthless murderer like Stalin would have attacked!! Why would he not ?? You offer him the dream of every Russian leader since the Tsar, a chance to dictate a new place for Russia In Europe and to plunder the rich industrial central european nations. If the AI now is actually reacting like this..wow this shows great promises. Let face fact, in 1939-early40 the German war machine, while impressive was not up to the challenge of invading France and the Low-Countries while garding the eastern approached to Germany and the Russian army would probably have looked a lot better , attacking INTO a narrowing theater of operation such as the road to Germany then it did trying to defend the huge border that ran from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Narrower front means lesser time for redeployement, shorter and more dense line of communications that makes a centralised Army like the Red Army a lot easier to control. Add to tbat the fact that moving into the richer and more developped portion of Europe would allow for a certain amount of "living of the land" ...Sudenly Berlin look uch more naked doesnt'it?

I feel I getting into this a little late but what the heck. If I understand correctly , the demo accuratly represent the Order of battle wich with we will find ourselves playing in the Scenario covering the Fall of France period of the war. Assuming thats the fact let me offer the following comment. France: No tanks at start ? They explanation for this I'm sure is that French Army doctrine at the time was that tanks were to be infantry support vehicule, that " High Command stupidity " resulted in a much dilluted Tank Force all along the line with poor coordination in large scale manoevers(lack of training no doubt) however the french tanks were more powerfull than their German counterpart and there was a very good numbers of them available for battle. And France junior officers new how to exploit their Machines as the Arras Counter-attack showed in the later part of the Battle for France. I respectfully submit that if all i wanted was to be able to repeat the error of the French High Command I would gladly accept having no tanks.... but....if Im to be Strategic Commander...give me my tanks and let me use them as I see fit. France opening order of Batle should have one left Inf corp and 1 tank corp. I could possibly accept the absence of French tanks on the "doctrine" excuse..I could buy some I guess, but if the French army is deprived of its tank based on that kind of rational then something much be done to downgrade the Italian navy and fast!! Because not only was its crewed by Italian sailor wich spent way to much time ashore..but it was commanded by the most inept bunch of admiral that the world's combined navies ever produced. The Royal Navy took them on with WW1 retread ships, in confined and hostile waters, and handed them defeat after defeat.the Italian had to resort to using frogmen to inflicyt damages to British Heavy ships. and ended up begging the german for the use of a Luftflotten to be able to stop the malta convoys.If France as no tanks...take away half the Italian Navy rigtaway please. thanks for your patience with my 1st timer rambling.