Mortar-Halftrack Question

[Dr. Brian]

I'm playing an ASL converted scenrario, and there is fog which limits the LOS to approximately 80m.

Now the problem is that I have some mortar carrying halftracks, with a minimum range of 100m.

So, you see the problem. They can't fire direct, and they can't use spotted fire with an HQ. Anyone hyave suggestions how to get them to fire at something and be useful????

Thanks in advance!

[gunnergoz]

If you ask me, mortar halftracks have no business being within 100 meters of any enemy! In reality, if the fog were so bad they'd be sent back to the rear for self-preservation.

[Vanir Ausf B]

It is unfortunate that mortar HTs cannot use spotters in CM. In good weather they are mostly worthless. In your situation they are completely worthless. I'm afraid you're screwed.

[argie]

The most incredible thing I saw in Mortar HTs (almost a bug), is that they could fire on the move

Amazing!

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

It is unfortunate that mortar HTs cannot use spotters in CM. In good weather they are mostly worthless. In your situation they are completely worthless. I'm afraid you're screwed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, I don't take them either but it seems to me that if you were in a scenario with small points (not many vehicles on either side), and either some hills or foilage to protect them, they could be very useful going up against infantry and other halftracks--especially if you're the Germs. Just keep them away from anything with a main gun.

I'm not sure about whether it's worth the points or not. Anyone remember how much they cost and what you get for it?

[Goanna]

Yup, I'm afraid you are screwed. If this was a randomly generated QB, consider the fact that the game is out to get you and you could attempt ritualistic sepaku at this point.

While I may be a crap player, I don't mind the mortar HT occassionally provided the weather and terrain are OK as stated above. They tend to be wussies and back away from basically anything that can generate a LOS, but have good ammo loads. I personally love the onboard 81 mortar and would take these more often if an HQ could aim them like the ground units. Perhaps a grog could tell us if this was how it generally happened or if it would be considered gamey? Also, was this on the list to be one of the mods for CMBB?

[offtaskagain]

Mortars generally fired from a dismounted position, not actually in the vehicle. Sure it was possible, but there was a lot more room to work when dismounted. This was true for all sides, with the British 3" mortars on carriers and the German 81mm on SPW 251s. I don't know for certain, but this fact leads me to believe they were mostly used as indirect artillery working through an FO.

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

Mortars generally fired from a dismounted position, not actually in the vehicle. Sure it was possible, but there was a lot more room to work when dismounted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only picture that I've seen of a mortar HT firing is a US vehicle in the Ardennes, and there seems to be plenty of room for them to operate the mortar. Wouldn't the crew prefer to fire from the vehicle, rather than having to manhandle it from the halftrack? And weren't the baseplates bolted down to aid stability?

[Stacheldraht]

Info from the US Standard Ordnance Catalogue of '44, Chamberlain and Ellis, and other sources:

The US M4A1 mortar carrier was built around the M2 half-track. Unlike the earlier M4 model, where the mortar could be fired from within the vehicle only in "extreme emergencies," crewmembers could fire the mortar from inside the M4A1. It had a rather limited traverse of 600 mils (33.3 degrees) and elevation of 40-80 degrees. The mortar pointed to the rear. The M4A1 was provided with a .30 caliber MG mounted on the skate rail around the rear compartment or fired from outside the vehicle (not modeled in CM).

Unlike the M4A1, where the mortar was fixed to point rearward, the M21 mortar carrier (based on the M3 halftrack) had the mortar pointed toward the front of the vehicle and could traverse 60 degrees. Elevation was 40-80 degrees. The mortar could be removed from the vehicle and fired from the ground like a standard mortar. CM doesn’t allow the mortar to be removed, sadly. The vehicle had a rear pedestal mount for the provided .50 caliber HMG, and the HMG could also be fired from the ground with the provided tripod. (Another feature not modeled in CM.)

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ]

[Michlos]

I have found that Mortar HT can make a good backup for an advancing infantry since it can more quickly move between different fire positions than a regular mortar team.

Once in a blue moon they can even take out AFVs. One of my HTs once blasted a german TD with a nice lob shot right on to the unshielded crew of the TD. Too bad my mortar was killed just a second before his round hit by the same TD it killed later :eek:

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Michlos ]

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stacheldraht:

CM doesn’t allow the mortar to be removed, sadly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suspect their decision is based on the amount of time it would take to dismount the mortar. It would be interesting to hear more about their actual use, what percentage of the time they were fired mounted/dismounted, and how they were spotted for, as seems more likely that firing by their own LOS.

Interesting data.

[Stacheldraht]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I suspect their decision is based on the amount of time it would take to dismount the mortar. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the M21, the standard mortar base plate doubled as the mount in the vehicle, so I assume that it could be removed rather easily--i.e., just lifting it out of the vehicle. Has anyone read any first-hand accounts of their use?

The mortar in question was the standard infantry 81mm mortar model M1, using the M1 base plate. (See p. 9, by the Adobe Acrobat numbering, of Vol. II of the Catalogue of Standard Ordnance Items: http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/DL/chron.htm#AWorldWarII19391945 )

Interestingly, the M1 mortar weighed 136 pounds with the base, and each round weighed around 7 to 10 pounds, depending on which type, so you can see why mortar teams move slowly in the game. There was a hand cart (like those little two-wheeled luggage dollies ) that could be used to move it, though.

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ]

[Dr. Brian]

Thanks for the prompt reply gang.

As I mentioned, it is an ASL converted scenario (not a QB), and this is what they gave me! With a minimum range of 100m and the fog limiting it to 80m, it does look like I am indeed screwed.

"Nuts!"

[Stacheldraht]

While I'm busy with mortar trivia, the standard rate of fire for the M1 mortar was 18 rounds/minute, maximum rate 30-35 rounds/minute. If only my crews had that kind of energy!

[gunnergoz]

Doc Brian-- One idea:

Pull the arming pin and lob the rounds by hand like the heroes in SPR! With any luck they can lob an 81mm round far enough to avoid their own shrapnel.

CM do somfink!

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gunnergoz:

Doc Brian-- One idea:

Pull the arming pin and lob the rounds by hand like the heroes in SPR! With any luck they can lob an 81mm round far enough to avoid their own shrapnel.

CM do somfink!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A guy fighting on Okinawa won the Medal of Honor for doing just that. He killed like a full company of Japanese over the course of the night.

[Triumvir]

Datapoint - I've been in an SP 120mm mortar battalion before, firing 120mm mortars from M113s.

Yes, this is a huge difference from WW2 usage, but our SOP was to fire from within the track wherever possible. We practiced dismounting and manpacking the 120mms, but it was clearly only to be done in dire situations.

Dismounting a mortar requires digging embedding holes, which is not such a problem for an 81, but is a little bit more time consuming for a 120mm. I'd say that about 1 minute would be reasonable for dismounting an 81mm, maybe 1:30 for a 120mm.

Rates of fire varied immensely, but I don't think that it's unreasonable to have perhaps a 15RPM sustained fire for 81s, and maybe a 10RPM for 120s.

A 120mm bomb is about 13 kilos, and is a real agony to hold in the barrel when waiting for the order to fire.

The 120s we used were light mortars, meant specifically for mounted firing, so they weighed altogether about 100 kilos, roughly 40 for the barrel, 40 for the baseplate and 20 for the bipod. Moving them down to the tracks early in the morning was fun...

When we (those of us who went for NCO training) first saw 81s during our infantry NCO course, we all laughed at how puny 81s were... (and guns are a whole different ballpark)

[massimorocca]

The 100 meters minimum range affected also the "foot" mortars and prevent use in the foggy sceanrios. I'm testing a new one of Wild Bill and it's impossible to target anything because the LOS is only of 40 meters and no Hq could be connected with mortars at 65 meters of distance.

It's a pity

Massimo Rocca

[MikeyD]

The M4, M4A1 and M20 also carried a standard mortar base as well as the fixed one in the hull, so the mortar itself could be fired mounted or dismounted. the 3rd Armored went to a lot of trouble to redesign their M4A1 to get the mortar firing forward instead of rearward (a very clever mod using a spare mg race), a modification that would only be necessary if firing from the vehicle was the preferred method of firing.

I've found the best way for me to use my mortar vehicles is to wait til the opposing armor has exhausted itself and has been driven off, then you can bring them up to pound the remaining enemy infantry. Otherwise it's suicide.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Triumvir:

When we (those of us who went for NCO training) first saw 81s during our infantry NCO course, we all laughed at how puny 81s were... (and guns are a whole different ballpark)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since the US 81mm had an optional 'big bomb', I wonder if that was the load of choice? It would make some sense in the semi-direct fire mode.

Lewis

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Since the US 81mm had an optional 'big bomb', I wonder if that was the load of choice? It would make some sense in the semi-direct fire mode.

Lewis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always wondered why the heavy rounds aren't represented in CM. That would probably make them as powerful as the 3".

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by massimorocca:

The 100 meters minimum range affected also the "foot" mortars and prevent use in the foggy sceanrios. I'm testing a new one of Wild Bill and it's impossible to target anything because the LOS is only of 40 meters and no Hq could be connected with mortars at 65 meters of distance.

It's a pity

Massimo Rocca<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but in this instance, you can at least use a HQ to spot, and with the mortar further back (say 50m), can make the 100m minimum distance. The problem is with the halftrack mortar, which one can not use an HQ to spot, hence it is much more of a waste.

That's why I'm wondering about the scenario design.

SPOILER….

It's ASL Scenario - Chenuex.