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A crew for free and another (real small) thing


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I made some test to learn more about the victory calculation.

a) If I destroy an enemy vehicel, I get the pp that it has cost.

B) If the crew was completly killed together with the vehicel, I get the same points.

c) If the crew survives, I get additional points if the crew is 'killed' later.

I think that's not right, the crew should always be included in the purchase points, so a surviving crew should mean that I get only the points for a vehicel minus crew. We should keep in mind - a tank is a tank, it's the crew that makes it 'Regular' or 'Elite'. In case of a King Tiger for example, this means a difference of ~250 points between Conscript and Elite!!!

Another thing, and that's a real small thing : what I can say, the end result seems to be always rounded down for the Allies and always rounded up for the Axis. Well, this CAN mean the difference between a minor and a draw...

[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

I made some test to learn more about the victory calculation.

a) If I destroy an enemy vehicel, I get the pp that it has cost.

B) If the crew was completly killed together with the vehicel, I get the same points.

c) If the crew survives, I get additional points if the crew is 'killed' later.

I think that's not right, the crew should always be included in the purchase points, so a surviving crew should mean that I get only the points for a vehicel minus crew. We should keep in mind - a tank is a tank, it's the crew that makes it 'Regular' or 'Elite'. In case of a King Tiger for example, this means a difference of ~250 points between Conscript and Elite!!!

[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good observations. Bump.

--Rett

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Yes, all the respondants missed the main

point of Scipio's post which was that

he thinks he has observed from tests that

if the crew dies in the tank, they don't

appear to cost any victory points, but

if they get out, they become a liability.

And that the tank itself should cost one

thing, just as material, while the exp.

level of the crew should cost another.

So an Elite tank that gets KO'd but the

crew survives, shouldn't cost any more

than a conscript tank in the same situation.

I don't know if his observations are correct

but they sound reasonable.

--Rett

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

So an Elite tank that gets KO'd but the

crew survives, shouldn't cost any more

than a conscript tank in the same situation.

I don't know if his observations are correct

but they sound reasonable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, that'd be screwed up. If you KO an elite tank you should get the victory points for an elite tank, regardless of whether the crew survives.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Nah, that'd be screwed up. If you KO an elite tank you should get the victory points for an elite tank, regardless of whether the crew survives.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think about it, what is worth more, KO-ing

a single tiger tank, or killing Wittman

and his tight team?

--Rett

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CMPlayer - yes that's the point. In princip, a conscript Tiger and an elite Tiger costs the same pp - I mean the pure tank. The difference of pp between a conscript and elite is in fact the cost of the CREW, not of the tank.

But the others have still also right, a Kingtiger elite crew (for example) would be worth ~250pp, and this would end misuse of crews, too. Noone would risc to waste them in a scout mission. Just think about the effect on the battleresult when a lot of crews are capture (=double victory points). A question is of course if the ratio of 'hardware' and 'software' costs should be so extreme, or if the 'hardware' must be more expensive. Anyway, to make a 'kill' complete, you would need to knock out the tank and the crew.

That's how it's rated if the crew dies together with the vehicel. I would nearly call it a bug to get additional points if the crew is eliminated later .

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

Think about it, what is worth more, KO-ing

a single tiger tank, or killing Wittman

and his tight team?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're talking about the whole war or campaign, Wittman. If you're talking about a single battle, the tank. And since CM is single battles (except operations)...

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

If you're talking about the whole war or campaign, Wittman. If you're talking about a single battle, the tank. And since CM is single battles (except operations)...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, but suppose you have an elite 14"

naval spotter. He shoots off his wad

and then gets killed on the way to exit

the board. How important is he to the

rest of that battle? Nothing. How important

is he to the whole campaign? I dunno...

but how many points does he cost to

lose?

--Rett

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

I made some test to learn more about the victory calculation.

a) If I destroy an enemy vehicel, I get the pp that it has cost.

B) If the crew was completly killed together with the vehicel, I get the same points.

c) If the crew survives, I get additional points if the crew is 'killed' later.

I think that's not right, the crew should always be included in the purchase points, so a surviving crew should mean that I get only the points for a vehicel minus crew. We should keep in mind - a tank is a tank, it's the crew that makes it 'Regular' or 'Elite'. In case of a King Tiger for example, this means a difference of ~250 points between Conscript and Elite!!!

[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see your point but this BTS did this to discourage people from using crews in an offensive manner. It's a way to penalize someone who does not get their crew to safety.

With your way a player is penalized if his crew is killed when the vehicle is knocked out. In other words he would get the same penalty that a careless person(who attacks with his crew) would get.

In reality, you're correct: A tank is a tank. It's the crew that makes it good. But this is only true because that crew can go get into another tank. This isn't so in CM. A crew cannot get into another tank and therefore the crew is worthless as a tank crew, they might as well be a bunch of medics or drooling vegetables.

Another thing that BTS did with crews is reduce their spotting ability. They cannot see as well as other units. Again, this is done to penalize players who use their crews in an offensive manner.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

Okay, but suppose you have an elite 14"

naval spotter. He shoots off his wad

and then gets killed on the way to exit

the board. How important is he to the

rest of that battle? Nothing. How important

is he to the whole campaign? I dunno...

but how many points does he cost to

lose? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh... how important is Wittmans crew for the rest of the battle after they bail? Nothing. It's the killing of the tank that matters.

BTW, arty spotters are somewhat unique in that they are all worth 30 victory points no matter what you paid for them.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

BTW, arty spotters are somewhat unique in that they are all worth 30 victory points no matter what you paid for them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that also the proportion with which

they hit your global morale? thx for

the info,

--Rett

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Well, what is a FO worth if all the artillery he represent has used up all the ammo? Nothing. But you still get 30 points if you take him out. Even if CM simulates only the tactical level, that doesn't mean that stratic level doesn't matters. We get (in princip) heavy artillery support from high command. In Stalingrad tank crews were used as normal infantry. When the big Soviet attack started, a lot of tanks were without crew. Maybe that doesn't matter in the battle itselve, but that doesn't reduce the importance of tankcrews.

And how about CM Operations? In an operation it matters if the crew survives to drive an earlier abandoned tank again.

About the 'demerit mark' argument, that would still work, or not?

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