Scipio Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 I made some test to learn more about the victory calculation. a) If I destroy an enemy vehicel, I get the pp that it has cost. If the crew was completly killed together with the vehicel, I get the same points. c) If the crew survives, I get additional points if the crew is 'killed' later. I think that's not right, the crew should always be included in the purchase points, so a surviving crew should mean that I get only the points for a vehicel minus crew. We should keep in mind - a tank is a tank, it's the crew that makes it 'Regular' or 'Elite'. In case of a King Tiger for example, this means a difference of ~250 points between Conscript and Elite!!! Another thing, and that's a real small thing : what I can say, the end result seems to be always rounded down for the Allies and always rounded up for the Axis. Well, this CAN mean the difference between a minor and a draw... [ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio: I made some test to learn more about the victory calculation. a) If I destroy an enemy vehicel, I get the pp that it has cost. If the crew was completly killed together with the vehicel, I get the same points. c) If the crew survives, I get additional points if the crew is 'killed' later. I think that's not right, the crew should always be included in the purchase points, so a surviving crew should mean that I get only the points for a vehicel minus crew. We should keep in mind - a tank is a tank, it's the crew that makes it 'Regular' or 'Elite'. In case of a King Tiger for example, this means a difference of ~250 points between Conscript and Elite!!! [ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good observations. Bump. --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted August 16, 2001 Author Share Posted August 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer: Good observations. Bump. --Rett<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Excuse, I'm German What means 'Bump'??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio: Excuse, I'm German What means 'Bump'???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just a little nudge to push the post back to the top of the page. --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Good post, Scipio. I also think that crews should be more "valuable", especially veterans, crack and elite. This would solve the whole "gamey use of crews" thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 The idea of making crews more valuable is a good one. If you knew that a dead crew was worth a heap of victory points, would you be tempted to gun down your opponent's crews to get a win? Or would it just make people less likely to use crews as disposable scouts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenSplatton Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If you knew that a dead crew was worth a heap of victory points, would you be tempted to gun down your opponent's crews to get a win? Or would it just make people less likely to use crews as disposable scouts? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Yes! Excellent idea! Die, gameyness, die! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 I think you guys are misunderstanding. Crews are more valuable than grunts, but only after they bail from the vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Yes, all the respondants missed the main point of Scipio's post which was that he thinks he has observed from tests that if the crew dies in the tank, they don't appear to cost any victory points, but if they get out, they become a liability. And that the tank itself should cost one thing, just as material, while the exp. level of the crew should cost another. So an Elite tank that gets KO'd but the crew survives, shouldn't cost any more than a conscript tank in the same situation. I don't know if his observations are correct but they sound reasonable. --Rett [ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer: So an Elite tank that gets KO'd but the crew survives, shouldn't cost any more than a conscript tank in the same situation. I don't know if his observations are correct but they sound reasonable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nah, that'd be screwed up. If you KO an elite tank you should get the victory points for an elite tank, regardless of whether the crew survives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B: Nah, that'd be screwed up. If you KO an elite tank you should get the victory points for an elite tank, regardless of whether the crew survives.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Think about it, what is worth more, KO-ing a single tiger tank, or killing Wittman and his tight team? --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted August 17, 2001 Author Share Posted August 17, 2001 CMPlayer - yes that's the point. In princip, a conscript Tiger and an elite Tiger costs the same pp - I mean the pure tank. The difference of pp between a conscript and elite is in fact the cost of the CREW, not of the tank. But the others have still also right, a Kingtiger elite crew (for example) would be worth ~250pp, and this would end misuse of crews, too. Noone would risc to waste them in a scout mission. Just think about the effect on the battleresult when a lot of crews are capture (=double victory points). A question is of course if the ratio of 'hardware' and 'software' costs should be so extreme, or if the 'hardware' must be more expensive. Anyway, to make a 'kill' complete, you would need to knock out the tank and the crew. That's how it's rated if the crew dies together with the vehicel. I would nearly call it a bug to get additional points if the crew is eliminated later . [ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer: Think about it, what is worth more, KO-ing a single tiger tank, or killing Wittman and his tight team?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you're talking about the whole war or campaign, Wittman. If you're talking about a single battle, the tank. And since CM is single battles (except operations)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B: If you're talking about the whole war or campaign, Wittman. If you're talking about a single battle, the tank. And since CM is single battles (except operations)...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Okay, but suppose you have an elite 14" naval spotter. He shoots off his wad and then gets killed on the way to exit the board. How important is he to the rest of that battle? Nothing. How important is he to the whole campaign? I dunno... but how many points does he cost to lose? --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio: I made some test to learn more about the victory calculation. a) If I destroy an enemy vehicel, I get the pp that it has cost. If the crew was completly killed together with the vehicel, I get the same points. c) If the crew survives, I get additional points if the crew is 'killed' later. I think that's not right, the crew should always be included in the purchase points, so a surviving crew should mean that I get only the points for a vehicel minus crew. We should keep in mind - a tank is a tank, it's the crew that makes it 'Regular' or 'Elite'. In case of a King Tiger for example, this means a difference of ~250 points between Conscript and Elite!!! [ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I see your point but this BTS did this to discourage people from using crews in an offensive manner. It's a way to penalize someone who does not get their crew to safety. With your way a player is penalized if his crew is killed when the vehicle is knocked out. In other words he would get the same penalty that a careless person(who attacks with his crew) would get. In reality, you're correct: A tank is a tank. It's the crew that makes it good. But this is only true because that crew can go get into another tank. This isn't so in CM. A crew cannot get into another tank and therefore the crew is worthless as a tank crew, they might as well be a bunch of medics or drooling vegetables. Another thing that BTS did with crews is reduce their spotting ability. They cannot see as well as other units. Again, this is done to penalize players who use their crews in an offensive manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer: Okay, but suppose you have an elite 14" naval spotter. He shoots off his wad and then gets killed on the way to exit the board. How important is he to the rest of that battle? Nothing. How important is he to the whole campaign? I dunno... but how many points does he cost to lose? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Eh... how important is Wittmans crew for the rest of the battle after they bail? Nothing. It's the killing of the tank that matters. BTW, arty spotters are somewhat unique in that they are all worth 30 victory points no matter what you paid for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B: BTW, arty spotters are somewhat unique in that they are all worth 30 victory points no matter what you paid for them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Is that also the proportion with which they hit your global morale? thx for the info, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer: Is that also the proportion with which they hit your global morale? thx for the info,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dunno. I'm not the one who did the test that discovered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted August 17, 2001 Author Share Posted August 17, 2001 Well, what is a FO worth if all the artillery he represent has used up all the ammo? Nothing. But you still get 30 points if you take him out. Even if CM simulates only the tactical level, that doesn't mean that stratic level doesn't matters. We get (in princip) heavy artillery support from high command. In Stalingrad tank crews were used as normal infantry. When the big Soviet attack started, a lot of tanks were without crew. Maybe that doesn't matter in the battle itselve, but that doesn't reduce the importance of tankcrews. And how about CM Operations? In an operation it matters if the crew survives to drive an earlier abandoned tank again. About the 'demerit mark' argument, that would still work, or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Rocker Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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