CM:BB Any change in LOS tool?

[Dogface21]

Playing CM1, I was thinking that a differant type of LOS tool might be quicker, maybe like this; Select unit and select LOS tool, a 360 degree( For infantry at full alert, less for tanks, even less when buttoned ect...)'circle' would appear blue\dark blue where the unit could see, red or not at all where they cant. This IMHO, would solve a few issues, like the question of unit facing, as well as just being instantanius(yeah,yeah spelling,I know) accurate and a helluva lot faster than tooling around whith a single bar for minutes on end,trying to suss out coverage. Besides, it may be more realistic that a unit could see a broader area the few feet wide.

This is just an idea I came up with when trying to set up defence in a town, I was getting frustrated wiggling around the LOS tool over every little bit of terrain, trying to see where my coverage was.

Im sure this has probably already been posted, and shot down in flames, but i'll just put it out anyways, just in case.

I'm still very green, but this idea makes sense to me.

Keep on Tankin'

[Viceroy]

In Steel Beasts they have this option available in the planning stage of the game, but not while the game is underway. Don't know if it would be possible to do that in the setup phase in CMBB but it would be nice.

[Andreas]

Hi, you are of course right and this has been posted and shot down in flames.

BTS' line according to my memory was that it would be too much micromanagement or somefink. My memory is going though, so if you can get the search function to run (best use Steve's membership number as search parameter), that would give you the right answer.

[Andrew H.]

I think it was too much of a processor hit given that the game was in 3D.

The same reason that mine dogs were unfeasable due to the difficulty of keeping track of smells on the 3D battlefield.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

I think it was too much of a processor hit given that the game was in 3D.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This jibes with my recollection as well, but I wonder about it. Would that still be the case if the calculations are done only if and when the player uses the LOS tool?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The same reason that mine dogs were unfeasable due to the difficulty of keeping track of smells on the 3D battlefield.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? :confused: How's that again?

Michael

[Dogface21]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I (of course) dont know, but it would be nice, imagine being able to click a unit , hit 'L' and insantly know where it can see, no dinkin' with a little bar, but I geuss if it has already been discused and rejected.... its too bad..

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Hi, you are of course right and this has been posted and shot down in flames.

BTS' line according to my memory was that it would be too much micromanagement or somefink. My memory is going though, so if you can get the search function to run (best use Steve's membership number as search parameter), that would give you the right answer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Given that he is creaky and old and German you can probably discount most of what he says

But yes, I think he's right on this one. The LOS tool isn't perfect, but it works pretty well, and to do anything more comprehensive would require a lot of processing power. Figure that at the moment the LOS tool only has to calculate LOS to 1 degree at a time. And my computer is lousy enough that even that hesitates a moment before displaying the result. Fair enough most people have better computers than I do, but multiply that time lag by 360 and you get a decent hit on even a top-notch gaming rig.

[Moon]

The problem is not processor power (well, maybe that too, no idea) but really a design decision by BTS. Knowing at an instant (no idea how to spell instantenaously...lol) the exact LOS "field" for a 360 degrees cirlce might be "quicker" and nicer for the player, but unfortunately is totally unrealistic. No soldier on the battlefield knows the EXACT lines of sight around him. He can judge and he can look closer, that's about it. You, as the player, can do the same. Move down to a lower view level and use your eyes - judge. If you need to know exactly, use the LOS tool for some critical spots. Allowing the player more than that would be like handing out radars and infrared sights to the WWII troops and would heavily throw the simulation out of track. Mind you, this is a WWII "simulation", not a Sci-Fi game where game interface means everything. Not everything which makes then game easier for the player is a good thing to have.

[LGMB]

Soldiers,

Personnaly the ease of use that this tool would provide would way out any realisim concers that I may have had. I hardly use the LOS tool as it is much easier to just use the target command (except for when your ajusting arty spotters of course). This new function would certainly give new live to and old tool.

[Dogface21]

I can see there are valid points against changing it, but I dont quite think it would be 'sci-fi', if you were an infantry man, and you were looking around, you could know pretty quickly what you can and cant see. I can see how this might be deemed a 'spoiler' for realism, but if you could find out the same info with the current system( which you can)it would be more of a time saver than anything else. It would be nice just as an optional thing too. So that way, players with higher end systems could use it, and those with less oompf wouldnt have to suffer the lag.

[Andrew H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Huh? :confused: How's that again?

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I left out the .

It's a reference to an old Hundminen thread.

[Louie the Toad]

Doesn't Sid Meier's Gettysburg have a LoS feature that shows the area a unit can observe, simply by selecting the unit and then the LoS icon.

Recollecting Toad

[Tero]

It would be nice though to be able to tell LOS from a specific location in the map that is not being occupied by a friendly unit: you click a feature in the map and then you just draw the LOS line to see where a unit can see if it was there.

Also, that feature would be nice when determining where an enemy unit can and can not see.

This would make it a hell of a lot easier to plan your approaches and ambushes when the game is under way and the situation is/becomes volatile.

And it would not be overly unrealistic or micromanagementiental IMO.

[Dogface21]

YEAH!! Why would it be considered more micomanagment than the system already in place, digging around with the current system sounds more like micromanagment to me.

[zahl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

No soldier on the battlefield knows the EXACT lines of sight around him. He can judge and he can look closer, that's about it. You, as the player, can do the same. Move down to a lower view level and use your eyes - judge. If you need to know exactly, use the LOS tool for some critical spots.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not a valid analogy since a soldier on the real battlefield "looking closer" can instantaneously see what in game terms would be a sector of the los field. Not full 360 degrees, but something like 90. He doesn't have to use some gamey bar to determine what exactly he can see. Well, not unless he has "pipe vision".

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

It would be nice though to be able to tell LOS from a specific location in the map that is not being occupied by a friendly unit: you click a feature in the map and then you just draw the LOS line to see where a unit can see if it was there.

Also, that feature would be nice when determining where an enemy unit can and can not see.

This would make it a hell of a lot easier to plan your approaches and ambushes when the game is under way and the situation is/becomes volatile.

And it would not be overly unrealistic or micromanagementiental IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you are wrong - how can you tell if you are on a rise somewhere that from the woods 500m out you would be able to observe the hill-top yonder? Or if your squad is at a street-corner in the SE part of the city, how can you know that from another street-corner in the NE part of the city that is currently enemy controlled somebody would be able to see the church steeple in the next village that you also don't control?

This is totally unrealistic, and BTS have dug their heels in on it, and rightly so. I would not be surprised if changes to the current LOS tool happened, but your suggestion is utterly unrealistic.

[Tero]

>But you are wrong - how can you tell if you

>are on a rise somewhere that from the woods

>500m out you would be able to observe the

>hill-top yonder?

How can you as the God of War force commander tell what your squad or vehicle in CM is actually able to see from where it is standing ? Radiotelemetry ? ESP ? MM band radar ?

Arty FO's in CM require clear LOS to be able to plot and execute accurate fire missions. Do they determine if there are any obstructions, like hills, in the flight path of the shell between the battery and the target location better if they can see the point of impact ? If they can not see the point of impact the fire mission is both delayed and more inaccurate. How realistic is that ?

It is pure and simple LOS I am talking about, not spotting. You are only able to give PRECISE orders which allow no positive deviation from the execution path. (A negative deviation being "run to the enemy and get snuffed" TacAI movement order )

>Or if your squad is at a street-corner in

>the SE part of the city, how can you know

>that from another street-corner in the NE

>part of the city that is currently enemy

>controlled somebody would be able to see the

>church steeple in the next village that you

>also don't control?

That assumes you are fighting in a town you have never heard of and your troops never been in. In CMBO world the Germans most definitely had the entire French countryside mapped and they must have known roughly the relative merits of the terrain features they chose to build their defensive positions in. The Allies could tap into the resistance to tell them the local sites and places of interest.

What if you spy with your little eyes an enemy tank and you wish to make your way to a flanking position ? The terrain tile is 20 meters and there is a dubious stretch you are not sure is out of LOS from that tank. Too far left or right means a clear flank shot to the enemy. But you can only experiment with a unit in place. OK, fair enough, you move an infantry unit to investigate and that costs you 7+ turns AND the infantry unit gets shot up bad in the process by a 20mm AA gun, which was brought up in the mean time.

>This is totally unrealistic, and BTS have

>dug their heels in on it, and rightly so. I

>would not be surprised if changes to the

>current LOS tool happened, but your

>suggestion is utterly unrealistic.

When was the last time you looked at a topographical map ? Can you imagine a spot in the map and what kind of a LOS would you get from that position even if you have never been there ? A 1km x 1km 20 000:1 map would give you all the terrain features you need to know to roughly determine the LOS from one location to the other.

There are no such orders in CM that instruct the unit in question to move stealthily and occupy a position NEAR location XX.ZZ that gives the best LOS to location Y in the map. Or pick a route that keeps it out of sight of Location Y until you reach XX.ZZ.

What about low level flights by recce planes taking photos ? LRRP activity ? Local civilian populace giving tips and hints ? Most of these factors are not unrealistic but they are out of the CM scope. Should these RL actions be ignored just because of that ? Since recce before battle is not part of the CMBO/CMBB world should the benefits gained from them be unrealistically ignored ?

[Andreas]

Tero, you are grasping for straws. Resistance, Germans knowing the place, yadda yadda recce planes, yadda topo maps. How about the US Major who went on holiday in the place 15 years ago? You forgot him. I have learned better than to debate with you. Your idea is unrealistic, no matter how hard you try to make something up to make it appear less so.

That does not mean that you can not legitimately want it. Everyone has a right to ask for changes to the game. But portraying it as 'realistic' when you have to come up with all sorts of fancy stories to make it appear so is laughable, and should be treated with the contempt it deserves. Get real.

That said, just go on indulging your flights of fancy, but as I said, I won't debate you on anything.

[maxm2]

Let's stay friendly here, it's only a game...

I would like to see the Steel Panthers (SP)approach and give units highlighted territory that corresponds to what they can see in (I think) eight different directions. It's enough "work" so that it feels like looking around in various directions to see what you can see.

I don't think that CM currently realistically models the abilities of the human eye to see everything in its visual field when looking in a particular direction...in real life you could instantly see if two unconcealed tanks and a field gun were visible to you over a rise--you wouldn't have to do any los procedures. But, since time is frozen while you examine los in CM, you have time to check out all those little details. Tedious sometimes, but pretty good. But the SP method would be better, in my opinion.

[PeterNZer]

Like Germanboy already said, it was a conscious design decision by Steve and Charles, and I feel it was the right decision. You have a los tool to aid you, but have to rely on your feel of the terrain and plan ahead accordingly. Better players usually find better positions (which means that I usually find the bad positions )

and this is ok for me.

[karch]

I think BTS has it pretty close right now. One of the big problems with a 360 LOS vision, is that it's not the same as a person looking across a field.

A person looking across a field may think they have full view of the field for 1000 yds, and swear that they do. But they don't know that there is a dip in the ground about 200m out big enough to hold a tank and 2 platoons. This took would give you a perfect view of LOS and blind spots form any location, I think the tool is too powerful as it is because you can already pick points and know what you can't see... ie that dip in the ground. You can already know what ground you can't see and have an idea where troops may be hiding.. This isn't true in reality many times where you know what you can see but you just don't know how much you can't see.. and where your blind spots start and stop.

Some recon should have to be done by foot and sometimes the only time you find out there are troops hiding out of your LOS is when your lead squad gets it in the neck from a MG unit you couldn't see... and didn't know you couldn't see it.

Sorry if this sounds confusing, but I hope people get my point.

Scott Karch

(those Byte Battles of Mench's are great... play them for a quick fun battle... and designers... please make more, I'll play them all.)

[Moon]

From various posters:

"in real life you could instantly see if two unconcealed tanks and a field gun were visible to you over a rise--you wouldn't have to do any los procedures."

and

"if you were an infantry man, and you were looking around, you could know pretty quickly what you can and cant see."

and

"That is not a valid analogy since a soldier on the real battlefield "looking closer" can instantaneously see what in game terms would be a sector of the los field. Not full 360 degrees, but something like 90. He doesn't have to use some gamey bar to determine what exactly he can see. Well, not unless he has "pipe vision".

But the soldier in question CAN make mistakes. Not everything you see is the way you see it from your position - you might miss a dip in the ground, misjudge the distance to an object, simply not spot a tiny little "hole" through a patch of woods or simply not realize that what you thought was a big pile of rubble, is indeed a camouflaged AT gun position. Providing a tool which shows, with no grade of error, the LOS for a particular unit, eliminates any such error.

The argument that "hey, this info is in the game, why not give it to the player" is not valid, for the same reason why units need to be spotted and are not identified straight after they are spotted. The info is there, but it would be wrong to give it to the player. He can find out - by moving in closer and identifying the enemy.

Once again, game user interface issues are not the only issues to be considered for a historical simulation. Nobody on a WWII battlefield knows his LOS in an instant and without error. Giving the player such a tool would seriously endager the simulation at its very core, given that the player already knows more than your usual WWII captain.

But all of the above, as usual, is just my personal opinion...

[Hanns]

An interesting question for the people who want the LOS "circle" which shows all blind spots, dips and keyholes: have you ever set up a range card for a machinegun or other weapon? It's a lot more difficult and time consuming than just sitting in your foxhole and making a quick sketch of what you can or cannot see. In the Army (US) we would set up the zones of fire, range stakes and then have someone tromp around downrange and try and determine where the blindspots were. It's amazing the amount of places where a grown man can hide when standing up and walking around. This doesn't even include all the areas where it would be impossible to see or shoot at them if they were prone or crawling. How tall is a prone soldier even with a rucksack on? 18 inches? Maybe 24" at the max? You mean to tell me that looking out over a piece of terrain, even with fieldglasses you could tell which areas are automatically visible with just a glance? Oh... you've got a WWII era topo map. What's the scale? 1:50,000 or maybe less? You might be able to determine if that big hill over there would block site from a postion but not if every saddle, slope or ridge is visible. Anyone that's gone hunting can attest to having a deer hide in a small dip and be completely invisible even 10 feet away. I've almost tripped on deer I've gotten so close to them. I think the "god" LOS is totally unrealistic and would be used as a crutch by people who can't figure out lines of sight, hull down positions or dead zones for themselves. JMHO, Hanns

[Dogface21]

Maybe a good compromise between ease-of-use and reality would be a mix of the two, maybe somthing like this:

You choose a unit, lets say an Inf. unit,he is standing in open ground, looking over a small valley, there are tall pines at the bottom of the valley, and a high ridge directly across, at higher elevation than the unit. You want to see what he can see. Hit L. A (lets just for examples sake say) 270 degrees, or whatever is deemed realistic for an inf man to see with a turn of the head( which hopefully you have noticed they DO ). A blue field pops up, and the 'shadow'behind the tall pines is black, or some such, because its blocked, the ridge behind those tall pines, however, would be blue. I did not suggest a 'radar' type LOS, and lord knows that they didnt have Xray gogs either. This type of tool would not do anything that the current one doesnt, exept save time and energy.

Think of it like this, if a platoon was setting up an ambush on the road, and a squad was directed to a place where they could not see the target area, dont you think they would say 'Hey Sarge? Umm, I cant see the road from here sir....'

Look, Im a totall greenie still, and I dont wanna go around steppin on peoples sensitive toes about a certain tool in a certain game, I just think it would be a vast improvement.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

It would be nice though to be able to tell LOS from a specific location in the map that is not being occupied by a friendly unit: you click a feature in the map and then you just draw the LOS line to see where a unit can see if it was there.

Also, that feature would be nice when determining where an enemy unit can and can not see.

This would make it a hell of a lot easier to plan your approaches and ambushes when the game is under way and the situation is/becomes volatile.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This might be convenient for a certain type of player, but it would be grossly unrealistic. This has been discussed before...at length.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And it would not be overly unrealistic or micromanagementiental IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't disagree with you more strongly.

Michael

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]