CM 2 Manual

[ParaBellum]

First, don't get me wrong. It's not that I didn't like the CM 1 manual. No. It contained lots of information. Unfortunately not much information I didn't already knew after playing the demo quite some time.

I mean, I knew how to plot a waypoint or how to select a squad, but I missed the kind of tactics thing. Or some kind of historical background information.

I have some old games, I don't play them anymore but sometimes I just read the manuals, because they were so well done.

IMHO a lot of people would like to read a bit about WW2 tactics in the manual, not everyone is a grog with a library of WW2 books at home.

Some cool photos, some tank specs or a few interesting stories or maps would surely improve the manual.

As I mentioned above, I don't think the CMBO manual is bad, just maybe a bit too technical.

I know there are some people on this board with a wealth of knowledge about WW2 and the eastern front, and I'm sure some would love to contribute to CMBB in a way.

And yes, of course the CM 2 manual should have something about 300 pages...

[Freak]

Agreed.

[The Commissar]

Would be a nice addition, especially background info.

I remember when I was fanatically addicted to the Napoleonic wars, and bought Talonsoft's Napoleon in Russia, the read me (although not really a manual) file provided so much information that I did not feel there was a need for me to buy an actual book on the subject.

Of course, the battle of Borodino is a lot less complex then 4 years of WW2 combat, but still...general facts and a few key dates and battles would be nice. Instead of pictures of AFV's, just take screens from the game. Just as realistic IMHO.

[Username]

Maybe BTS should break new ground and release alot what you ask for pre-release.

[Michael Emrys]

My own experience with historical background in computer game manuals has been that it ain't worth a hoot. It certainly wasn't worth the added experience of printing it up.

And it isn't as if printed information of the kind you guys are asking for is all that hard to come by. As evidenced by your posting here, you already have access to the internet and the vast array of information obtainable thereby. And even small town libraries are able to get fairly rare books by inter-library loan. If you live near a sizable urban center, there is likely a hobby shop or book store that can get you as much material as you are ever going to find in the back of a game manual, and probably at a lower cost.

Michael

[Gyrene]

My favorite thing about the ASL manual was its equipment sections, something like that in a CM manual would be sweet.

Gyrene

[Panzer Leader]

I agree and think that weapons charts, armour charts, etc would be a big help. I bet Steve would say "It takes away from the immersive 'field commander' aspect of the game."

Still, it would be nice, 'cause I just have to click on the units and look instead of leafing through the manual.

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

And it isn't as if printed information of the kind you guys are asking for is all that hard to come by. As evidenced by your posting here, you already have access to the internet and the vast array of information obtainable thereby. And even small town libraries are able to get fairly rare books by inter-library loan. If you live near a sizable urban center, there is likely a hobby shop or book store that can get you as much material as you are ever going to find in the back of a game manual, and probably at a lower cost.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Michael. It's not that I want the CM 2 manual describe the whole russian campaign or detailed tables about, let's say a 1943 Panzer division. Everyone interested in such "advanced" topics can indeed find lots of information on the internet.

But I think that the rather "technical" approach of the CM manual could be "spiced up" with some interesting stuff about the environment the game tries to recreate.

As Gyrene pointed out, units stats and descriptions would be a great addition to the manual. I always found it a bit annoying to use an Excel document (BTW, thx again to the guy who did that job) with the unit stats just to have a printed version of the stats in the units screen.

And yes, many games do a bad job when presenting "historical information" in their manuals. But I think there were also some games that got it right. Just think about "Aces of the Pacific" or "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe". Lots of information and great to read IMO.

I think they gave you a decent "basic knowledge" and encouraged you to get more information about topics you were interested in.

[David Aitken]

In my opinion, it is ridiculous to expect game programmers, on top of creating an extremely realistic and historically accurate game, to also give us information about all the various things they have modelled. There are thousands of people out there who have painstakingly researched the Second World War, the battles, the armies, the equipment, and all other aspects, and written detailed and exhaustive books on the subject.

If you want some background to CM, get out and find some of these books, instead of expecting programmers to summarise it all for you at no extra cost. That way you will get much more extensive, accurate, interesting information, and learn about many related subjects in the process.

It's not as though the subject matter of CM is purely BTS's creation, and we need them to tell us what's been going on in their minds as they've conceived the game. Do yourselves a favour, and use CM as a starting point for a bit of self-education. I can assure you, whatever aspect of the game which interests you, there are books out there which will tell you all you want to know. Hearing a brief, second-hand, all-encompassing summary from BTS would be a very, very poor substitute for a bit of proper research – and 'research' is by no means a chore, it requires only a bit of motivation, and will do you a lot of good.

This strikes me as another case of 'give them an inch, and they'll take a mile'. BTS could, in keeping with the policies of many other games companies, have provided a quick run-down of the basic controls and let you get on with it. Instead they provided a large and exhaustive paper manual. Now that people have come to expect this standard, they inevitably look beyond it, and expect more for the next version.

BTS could package CM2 with an encyclopaedia of war on the Eastern Front, and people would still expect something better for the next version. This is why so many companies do no more than necessary to please their customers – because the more they give, the more the customer will want. Teach the customer to expect poor products and no service, and the smallest concession will seem like a big improvement to them, and they'll be happy. Do your best all of the time, and the customer will become disenchanted through your lack of improvement.

[M Hofbauer]

Totally concur with Mr Aitken, couldn't have said it better.

Maybe the only thing feasible I could add somewhere along the line what ParaBellum asked for would be some sort of selected bibliography for start or something.

yours sincerely,

Si Vis Pacem.

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

[QB

BTS could package CM2 with an encyclopaedia of war on the Eastern Front, and people would still expect something better for the next version. Teach the customer to expect poor products and no service, and the smallest concession will seem like a big improvement to them, and This is why so many companies do no more than necessary to please their customers – because the more they give, the more the customer will want.they'll be happy. Do your best all of the time, and the customer will become disenchanted through your lack of improvement.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm, I think I'm misunderstood.

I tried to explain just the opposite. I

don't want BTS to include the history of WW2 into the manual. My point, sorry if that wasn't clear, was that the manual of CM, as fine as it is in regards to game mechanics, lacks IMHO some points that could improve the atmosphere,make playing CM more comfortable and perhaps give new players an easier approach to the game.

I don't understand why it's <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ridiculous to expect game programmers ... to also give us information about all the various things they modelled. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? And as I mentioned in my first post, they're many people on this forum who could contribute to such topics.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you want some background to CM, get out and find some of these books, instead of expecting programmers to summarise it all for you at no extra cost. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice. Be assured that I do read books about topics I'm interested in.

I'm really not sure if you understood my post.

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Maybe the only thing feasible I could add somewhere along the line what ParaBellum asked for would be some sort of selected bibliography for start or something.

yours sincerely,

Si Vis Pacem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Hofbaur

Yep, I'd like that idea.

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ParaBellum wrote:

I don't want BTS to include the history of WW2 into the manual. My point, sorry if that wasn't clear, was that the manual of CM, as fine as it is in regards to game mechanics, lacks IMHO some points that could improve the atmosphere,make playing CM more comfortable and perhaps give new players an easier approach to the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How exactly could you improve the 'atmosphere'? The manual isn't supposed to have an atmosphere, that's what the game is for, and the game has it in bucketloads. The manual tells you how to use the game.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't understand why it's

ridiculous to expect game programmers ... to also give us information about all the various things they modelled.

Why? And as I mentioned in my first post, they're many people on this forum who could contribute to such topics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because a brief background to the subject matter of the game is not something you can just drop in. As soon as you start saying something, you have to make sure you say it properly. Otherwise people will immediately either be confused by your synopsis, or annoyed because they know that it's innacurate. Where do you draw the line? And as for photos, you can't just magic up a few pictures and stick them in – you have to find them, get permission to print them, and maybe pay royalties.

Adding a section of this kind to the CM manual would be akin to publishing a short history of the war or the campaign in question, and this is no simple undertaking. And at the end of it all, you simply have, as I have said, a poor substitute for one of the many, many thorougly researched and professionally published books on the same subject, which are readily available. Keep in mind that those writing any synopses for the CM manual would simply be taking their information from these books.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm really not sure if you understood my post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understood it allright, but I don't think you understand the concept of the CM manual. It is a publication telling you how to play CM. It is not an effort to tie CM in with the war. It is not BTS's business to educate you about the war, there are already thousands of people who have published work for this purpose.

[Panzer Leader]

Hey Dave relax. How do you feel about including unit info tables in the manual?

Also, how about rarity tables and Availibility dates? Don't you think that would help people designing scenarios as well as generally understanding of the game?

[Col Deadmarsh]

Note to BTS: I'd like to volunteer to be a proofreader for the CM2 manual. I don't have a master's degree in English or anything but I'm very good at catching spelling and grammatical errors. In my spare time I'm a screenwriter so I do have a good grasp of the language. I'm dead serious about this offer so please let me know if this is possible.

[Bog]

What Colonel Deadmarsh is REALLY saying is he'd like to SEE the CM2 manual first.

[James Crowley]

I tend to agree with Panzer Leader in regard to the usefulness of tables and ParaBellum in regard to hving a little more background info.

CM is first and foremost a game; it is evidently not the real world. It tries to emulate the real-world (and succeeds extremely well for the most part) in the area that it covers but, we as players need to understand ,at least in the broad sense, how this "interpretation" is arrived at.

As an example the "Terrain exposure chart" available at CMHQ seems to have been very well received. Using it in no way spoils the play of the game and I would imagine is very helpful to beginners as well as veteran players. It is only info. that has been extrapolated from playing the game; how much better might it have been to have been produced by the makers of the game.

I perceive a hedge as giving more cover but less protection than a wall. Does the game ?

That is the sort of question that simple charts and tables can provide an answer to and which is quite difficult to evaluate through gameplay because of the many variables involved.

I don't think anyone is asking for mathematical formulae or historical commentary, just guidelines. Charts and tables just happen to be a useful and easily digestible way to present that sort of info.

I too, hope for a manual that has perhaps just a little more "hard " info and explanations as to why things are done in a certain way. That might tend to cut down questions and queries later on.

A case in point is that of grenades. The manual explained why they weren't tracked and while I didn't agree, at least I understood how the game was dealing with that particular issue. As far as I can tell that was never questioned until the dawning of CMBB, when the issued was raised by myself (and quite likely many others) and we now learn that it is being ammended by BTS - bless their cotton socks!

Just my thoughts anyway.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bog:

What Colonel Deadmarsh is REALLY saying is he'd like to SEE the CM2 manual first. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, well I do have to get "paid" in some fashion.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by James Crowley:

...we as players need to understand ,at least in the broad sense, how this "interpretation" is arrived at.

As an example the "Terrain exposure chart" available at CMHQ seems to have been very well received. Using it in no way spoils the play of the game and I would imagine is very helpful to beginners as well as veteran players. It is only info. that has been extrapolated from playing the game; how much better might it have been to have been produced by the makers of the game.

...

That is the sort of question that simple charts and tables can provide an answer to and which is quite difficult to evaluate through gameplay because of the many variables involved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This I could go for and would second the request/suggestion. I would also be willing to compromise to the extent that I would like to see typical TO&Es of units that you can't buy outright in the game, such as a German reconnaisance battalion for a Panzer division in 1941, for example. This would be a great help in setting up a scenario.

Michael

[Dirtweasle]

Exposure tables, spotting tables (LOS on X terrain moving at Y spped), TO&E tables, armor values, availability, etc. would be very welcome indeed. It seems to be the sort of documentation that most users would find very helpful. I like the existing manual, just comparing it to the only other game I've bought (EU) since CM is night and day. Even just including a PDF with that sort of stuff would be nice.

Historical background would be nice, especially in a tutorial kind of setting. Descriptions of a fire & maneuver scenario, a meeting engagement or some defensive arrangement, that kind of thing.

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: Dirtweasle ]

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

I understood it allright, but I don't think you understand the concept of the CM manual. It is a publication telling you how to play CM. It is not an effort to tie CM in with the war. It is not BTS's business to educate you about the war, there are already thousands of people who have published work for this purpose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok David, please calm down. I'm just trying to get some comments about a question I have about the CM 2 manual.

As some people here have already mentioned, quite some people would like to read more about stuff like exposure tables, armour values IN the manual. And I still think that some historical information about these topics nicely fit into a CM 2 manual.

OK, you like the CM manual the way it is, I like it too but there's always room for improvement.

As Jason put it very well, CM is a game. And therefore, a (more) "entertaining" manual with more data would for me increase the "atmosphere" of playing the game.

David, I didn't mean to offend you, but your comments seemed a bit harsh to me.