Soviet Artillery in CM2

[MrSpkr]

In most of the CM2 posts I have seen thus far, people have focussed on T-34's, lend lease equipment, and human wave attacks. Few have discussed the power and ready availability of Soviet artillery. The Soviets have always been in love with their artillery, particularly mortars.

I am wondering how this will be reflected in CM2. Will FO's be a lot cheaper? How about 81mm and 120mm on-board mortars, plus infantry guns, AT-guns, etc.? Also, how will BTS reflect the readiness and mental state of a German unit that just underwent 90 minutes of constant high-calibre shelling?

In a similar vein, since the Soviets loved to begin any major attack with prolonged bombardments, will BTS place shellholes in the terrain pool so that maps could be designed with pre-existing shellholes (and so that the random maps would have them as well)?

Any thoughts?

MrSpkr

[ 04-17-2001: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[Mattias]

As long as the distinction between “preparatory” and “on call” artillery is kept clear it should not be a problem.

The former they had, the latter they did not have to the same extent.

M.

[Commissar]

My guess is that Red artillery will either take longer to fire or the Soviet player may be forced to use his artillery assets early to simulate the prep fire that was prelavent in Soviet practice rather than the more on call feature the Germans or Western Allies seem to have in CM1.

[Gyrene]

Russian communications between units was quite poor, and after the attack started they tended to stick to their plans, no matter what, as there could be little coordination between elements beyond the original plan.

I agree with Commissar, prep fire should be the Russians biggest artillery asset. LOTS of it.

Gyrene

[Abbott]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattias:

As long as the distinction between “preparatory” and “on call” artillery is kept clear it should not be a problem.

The former they had, the latter they did not have to the same extent.

M.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is my thinking as well. The huge "Preparatory" artillery strikes would have already taken place before the level of the battle we will be fighting takes place.

[Mr. Johnson--]

Well at the same time it would be hard to model, Russians blowing the whole hell out of a hill, while the Germans are behind and around it. And after the barrage, they run up to positions on the hill.

[MrSpkr]

I agree that the focii should be on preparatory fire. Soviets calling down artillery in the MIDDLE of a battle should be prepared for a relatively long wait for the initial barrage and a whole host of problems shifting it.

However, as Mr. Johnson points out, the Germans will simply hide away from their starting areas until the bombardment is over, then run back to them. While I agree that this is, in some respects, a perfectly historical tactic (the Germans did this all the time when they knew a Russian attack was imminent), I know that the fire would probably be at least minimally effective against the troops. I mean, the Soviets would have scouted the lines a little (that's how the Germans would know an attack was coming) and have a decent idea of where to focus the bombardment.

I just don't see how this can be modeled.

I presume there is agreement, too, on inclusion of shellholes into the terrain mix?

MrSpkr

[Username]

Hopefully trenches for the germans and dugouts also. Germans called the dugouts mantraps. Basically build a trench position for a squad with alternate positions for the squad LMG. Then burrow into the earth wall of the trench and make a place to wait out indirect fire. A large caliber direct hit made this chancy.

[Michael Emrys]

I pretty much agree with the above posts. I suspect that Soviet on-board FOOs should be fairly rare. One way to handle Sov artillery during the battle would be to have the Soviet player plot his fires during the Set-up turn. This would include specifying not only their location but also their timing.

On thing to have in mind is that the Sovs partly compensated their lack of indirect on-call fires by a lavish supply of assault guns, especially the SU-76, to provide direct fire support.

Michael

[Abbott]

snip..

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr:

I mean, the Soviets would have scouted the lines a little (that's how the Germans would know an attack was coming) and have a decent idea of where to focus the bombardment.

I presume there is agreement, too, on inclusion of shellholes into the terrain mix?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scouting of the enemy lines is not necessarily the prerequisite, a lot of Soviet artillery fire was expended on map coordinates.

[John Kelly]

You questioned the morale of German units after undergoing 90 minutes of artillery shelling. Currently, players can create scenarios whereby units begin the game panicked etc. Although the effects don't last long, it is possible to simulate the situation you described. I am excited about the prospect of CM2...bring it on! John

[Grisha]

I don't mind so much if all these penalties get placed on Soviet forces, just so long as none of them are still in place by 1944. By this time, the Soviets were very effective, especially in the exploitation phase with their own version of the Kampfgruppe, the forward detachment. This military unit was very flexible and combat capable, commanded by experienced and skilled commanders. It usually contained a little bit of everything, armor, infantry, SP arty, arty, antitank, engineers, and antiair. These are the guys that would risk driving in ravines, rather than risk detection on the open road. For them, the order of the day was go deep and wreak havoc, and they knew what they were doing.

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grisha:

I don't mind so much if all these penalties get placed on Soviet forces, just so long as none of them are still in place by 1944. By this time, the Soviets were very effective, especially in the exploitation phase with their own version of the Kampfgruppe, the forward detachment. This military unit was very flexible and combat capable, commanded by experienced and skilled commanders. It usually contained a little bit of everything, armor, infantry, SP arty, arty, antitank, engineers, and antiair. These are the guys that would risk driving in ravines, rather than risk detection on the open road. For them, the order of the day was go deep and wreak havoc, and they knew what they were doing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree - but as has been mentioned in other threads, the evolution of the Soviet Army is one of hte challenges facing BTS in designing CM2. Certainly the Red Army of 1944-1945 was far different (and far more efficient) than that of 1941-1942.

Perhaps the efficiency of Soviet artillery should increase as the war progresses. Additionally, the cost should decrease as arty becomes more readily available.

I like the idea of making the Russians preplot their artillery 9in the setup phase); however, that would not prevent the Germans from setting up to the side or rear of their intended start positions, then running up after the bombardment. One way to handle this might be to allow the Sovs to pre-set artillery fire for a given location any time during hte first ten or fifteen turns. That would greatly reduce the German mobility, yet still give the Germans a little bit of wiggle room as to set ups.

John - I know that scenario designers can place units panicked, at reduced strenght, etc.; however, that cannot be replicated (currently, at least) in the most popular battles - the quick battles).

MrSpkr

[Skipper]

> One way to handle this might be to allow

> the Sovs to pre-set artillery fire for a

> given location any time during hte first

> ten or fifteen turns.

Hmm... looks like a nice idea, by the way! Not only the Sovs, but both sides in fact. That's the way to execute proper pre-planned strikes. However, arty bombardments would normally shift on a signal, not on a particular time. So, perhaps, a "pre-planned arty" could be given three-four zones of fire and switch from one to another on player's order?

From what I understand, the normal use of soviet artillery would be 82mm and 120mm directly "on call" to batallion or company, 76mm regimental guns more often than not in direct fire mode, and all other calibres in counterbattery, preplanned strikes and on call to higher HQs.

Soviet artillery employment was indeed affected early in the war by lack of radios, trained artillery officers and ammo supplies, not to mention lack of good air recon and constant Luftwaffe threat.

However, from what I can say, there is no reason to do anything with smaller caliber modelling. You can make FOs green all you want, but there were many highly trained soviet artillerists, as well as many Lt Jrs from 3 months crash course, where they were taught that sin(x)~x. Big caliber guns, OTOH, were not commonly available on 3 minutes call.

And finally, I recall a discussion about arty where the conclusion was: if you make artillery as powerful as it is in reallife, thet would be a poor gameplay.

[Commissar]

With all the talk of Soviet artillery and tank platoon control, I wonder why no one has bothered to talk about the German shortcomings and how, or if, they will be modeled in CM2 especially towards the end of the war. As another poster has stated, the Red Army of 44-45 was a far different beast than the stumbling giant of '41. The Red Army had learned important lessons during the critical year of '41-43 and used those lessons to smash the Wehrmacht and destroy entire Army Groups (what the Germans used to be able to do before '43). While the Germans were tactical masters, their abilities certainly degraded after heavy losses/, inexperienced/ill-trained replacements, poor war production policies, and idiotic stand-fast orders. Oddly enough, where the Red Army improved over the course of the war and became more flexible in organization and command, the Germans became less so and drifted more to the stubborn, inflexible system of the early REd Army (out-of-touch one man directives and political commissars and all). People want the early Red army units to have restrictions on what they can do. That's certainly reasonable and accurate. However, it shouldn't be one sided and should be applied to the Germans especially as the war progresses. I really wish BTS would give us some clues on how they plan to model some things. I guess if they did, they would get nothing but outraged e-mails from self-proclaimed "experts" who want things one way or the other. Anyway, how can German army limitations also be accurately modeled in CM2??

[Skipper]

My best guess is that they will leave it to scenario designers (to tweak force selection, combat experience and morale) and totally omit that in QB generator. Which is a perfectly correct decision IMHO. But we've been here before, right?

[Skipper]

> However, as Mr. Johnson points out, the

> Germans will simply hide away from their

> starting areas until the bombardment is

> over, then run back to them.

When I first read that I thought that it could not be as simple as that. I did some reading up. Voila! I wonder if many guys here understand how elaborate a properly executed preparatory artillery strike is?

To start with, there is a "firewall tactic", which is the simplest of the ways to preclude the defendants from playing tricks like what you are describing. Okay, this much I knew before.

Then, there may (or may not) be a repeat strike when defenders return to their positions.

Then, to quote a german source "russians were masters of infltration under the guise of a false arty preparation." Ie, it may be a false prep strike altogether. While defenders cool down away from the first trenchline, attackers may already be within 30 m from it.

Then, there were numerous false 'recon by force' attacks before the big one. Go figure which one is the real thing. Germans got it wrong on many occasions.

Then, soviet army put heavy emphasis on all other types of recon. The theory was that it is much better to suppress a fortified MG point (a battery, a trenchline, you name it) during the prep strike, rather than try to react to it during the infantry attack phase.

So, as it turned out, a 'simple' artillery stike was in fact a much more complicated business than I (and, I think, many other people here) realized.

[ArmchairKIA]

Just a idea on implementing bombardment.

You would have (purchase if QB, large maps only!) target markers similar to TRP's. Markers my not even be necessary. Bombardment would start and finish after setup is complete. I think that it would be very similar to a rocket bombardment in that the 'ammo' would be used up quickly (time compression, for the sake of playability).

Just an idea,

-gabe-

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ArmchairKIA:

You would have (purchase if QB, large maps only!) target markers similar to TRP's. Markers my not even be necessary. Bombardment would start and finish after setup is complete. I think that it would be very similar to a rocket bombardment in that the 'ammo' would be used up quickly (time compression, for the sake of playability).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would certainly work for one type of bombardment, the pre-attack preparatory shoot.

But there are other types, like a creeping bombardment that precedes your advancing troops. Whether timed, or shifting when someone in the attacking wave signals with a Very pistol, these need to be continuing throughout the turn.

Come to think of it, I believe the British used something like this as well.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

That would certainly work for one type of bombardment, the pre-attack preparatory shoot.

But there are other types, like a creeping bombardment that precedes your advancing troops. Whether timed, or shifting when someone in the attacking wave signals with a Very pistol, these need to be continuing throughout the turn.

Come to think of it, I believe the British used something like this as well.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct, Michael. Timed Creeping Barrages were indeed used by the Commonwealth. They weren't as common in the Second World War as in the first, but were one of the many tools in the battalion commander's arsenal.

[von Lucke]

I believe the issue of prepatory bombardment (in relation to CMBO) was discussed quite heavily, with the end result being Steve stating that Prep Fire was considered an operational event that would have occured outside the scope of battle depicted in CM. I don't really see BTS changing this for CM2.

I'd pretty much just count on 82mm / 120mm mortars having a shorter "time to target" than Regimental level 76mm guns, followed by 122mm at Division, and the 152mm at Corps (generally speaking). Katyushas will, most likely, be the same as the nebelwerfer batterys are now.

If anything, you'll probably see longer delay times for Soviet FO's, but not much else different.

[Skipper]

Afaik, Katyushas ARE what was called "operational level" here. Ie, they were operated in the following way: pull up on position, launch, run. Never "on call".

[Skipper]

On regimental 76mm guns, I suspect CM engine must be tweaked to make their use in direct fire mode a more viable tactic than it is now. As it is, they are too slow to move, and too easy to KO with a well placed mortar round. As it was in RealLife , they were widely used in that mode and apparently survived a lot better than in CM.

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

von Lucke said: I believe the issue of prepatory bombardment (in relation to CMBO) was discussed quite heavily, with the end result being Steve stating that Prep Fire was considered an operational event that would have occured outside the scope of battle depicted in CM. I don't really see BTS changing this for CM2.

I have to agree with von Lucke or Steve, or who ever originally said the above. Soviet Indirect artillery fire can best be described as an operational tool simply because of the limited communications available (read lack of wireless sets). But I would be more inclined toward incorporating Soviet indirect fire capability via pre-planning as suggested above. The planning stage may be conducted at regimental, or division levels but the impacts of pre-planned artillery fire are certainly tactical, and thus its incorporation is certainly appropriate to a tactical level game

Soviet artillery employment at the level of CM would typically consist of Soviet self-propelled guns firing in a direct support mode…ala the SU152, JSU (or ISU) 152, etc. Soviet “crash-booms” 76.2mm field guns also were employed a great deal in a direct fire mode. Mortars were also heavily relied upon for tactical level or battlefield level “indirect artillery” fire. However CM’s present modeling of mortar fire would make it difficult to portray actual Soviet battlefield employment of the 82mm and 120mm mortars (read BTS needs to take another look at mortar fire and how it is being modeled in Combat Mission).

In the case of an established defensive position I think we can safely assume that Red Army units would have established a fairly elaborate system of field telephones…with a fair amount of redundancy in telephone lines. I would contend that in this situation Soviet Artillery was employed in an “adjust and fire” mode in real time similar to what is being portrayed with Allied and German FO’s in CMBO. This of course assumes Soviet Artillery observers remain in their initially established position at the start of a scenario…i.e. they hang out where the telephone is. Perhaps an intrinsic probability that at some point in the game phone lines may become severed…poof no more fire and adjust capability.

In addition, it is evident from various works on late war Soviet Army doctrine that the Red Army was employing forward air controllers in limited numbers. These fellows apparently accompanied armoured spearheads and were in communication via wireless sets with Red Air force ground support elements. So in limited cases Red Army units should be able – at a battlefield level (read tactical level) – to call in air strikes on positions established by ground elements. In game terms that means an FO unit with a radio designates a target…5 or 10 minutes latter dedicated Sturmaviks attack that target. IMHO air liaison officers should be available in CMBO in limited numbers…subjected to realistic rarity constraints. But that is for a different thread.

[Schwarze]

the soviets had 2 main morters...

Soviet 50mm morter

Soviet 82mm morter