Mod Making Etiquette.....

[deanco]

I think jd is talking about that "old world courtesy". The sense of how things are done in the world. Some people have it, and others don't. Sure, it's a nice gesture, but not everyone has that old world courtesy, eh?

The only problem I would have is with someone passing off a slightly modified version of my work as an original creation, without giving me credit. And, as Clubfoot says, if they credit me in the readme, I have no problem with it whatsoever (and actually encourage it, as I've released the DO IT UR SELF MOD PAK).

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DeanCo--

CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/

so many games...so little time

[stevetherat]

This started out as a simple request. No, not even a request, a suggestion for common decency and respect.

And, as usual it seems, along come two specific people and turn it into an argument. What drives you people? I don't understand why arguments have to occur over almost every topical or contentious subject, instead of simply airing your point of view.

Original artistic work has intellectual value to the originator and, as such is protected by law, if stated. If not, it is public domain and open to editorial reviews or re-working. Common courtesy, however, suggests that you make some mention of the originator of the work you have edited or used.

StR

[Gordon]

Actually, I believe that in the US, an implicit copyright applies to all original works, and exists even in the absence of a formal copyright statement (hence the implicit), and also remains in effect even if the work is placed in the public domain.

Public domain implies free use, not license to steal.

Gordon

[stevetherat]

I intended it to imply that it was free to USE, not to STEAL, without specific licence.

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Gordon:

Actually, I believe that in the US, an implicit copyright applies to all original works, and exists even in the absence of a formal copyright statement (hence the implicit), and also remains in effect even if the work is placed in the public domain.

Right. The U.S. Copyright Office states that, "The use of a copyright notice is no longer required under U. S. law."

"Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is "created" when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time. "Copies" are material objects from which a work can be read or visually perceived either directly or with the aid of a machine or device, such as books, manuscripts, sheet music, film, videotape, or microfilm."

Although it's beneficial to post the written notice of copyright, (the benefit is that in case someone decides to steal your material it makes it much harder for them to claim that they didn't know that it was copyrighted if the case goes to court) it isn't required. *shrug*

Kitty

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Hamsters at War!

Chicks With Tanks

Lorak's FTX

"I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka

The McNoldy Group

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Gordon:

Actually, I believe that in the US, an implicit copyright applies to all original works, and exists even in the absence of a formal copyright statement

Originally posted by Gordon:

Actually, I believe that in the US, an implicit copyright applies to all original works, and exists even in the absence of a formal copyright statement (hence the implicit), and also remains in effect even if the work is placed in the public domain.

Right. The U.S. Copyright Office states that, "The use of a copyright notice is no longer required under U. S. law."

"Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is "created" when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time. "Copies" are material objects from which a work can be read or visually perceived either directly or with the aid of a machine or device, such as books, manuscripts, sheet music, film, videotape, or microfilm."

Although it's beneficial to post the written notice of copyright, (the benefit is that in case someone decides to steal your material it makes it much harder for them to claim that they didn't know that it was copyrighted if the case goes to court) it isn't required. *shrug*

Kitty

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Hamsters at War!

Chicks With Tanks

Lorak's FTX

"I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka

The McNoldy Group

[Clubfoot]

Tiger,

"bad guy"? Nothing of the sort. As an artist myself I respect both your opinion and desire for a polite request to use your work.

As for "placing no value on other people's work", I'm not sure where this assumption came from, but not from my post. I said nothing of the sort nor do I believe this.

I place plenty of value upon the work's of all mod-makers for all games. My point was that in any other modding I've done and MOST I've seen, there will be either a statement "Do not use or duplicate without express written consent blah...blah...blah" or "If used in part or whole please credit the author blah...blah...blah..." or no statement as to third party use at all.

If you feel strongly about this, include in your readme's something to the "written consent"'s effect. Otherwise, my point is simply that a mention in the credits IS enough.

That said, and since this thread has become flame-bait with all the hurt feelings going around, I suppose I'll quit while I'm ahead (or behind, or whatever).

Clubfoot.

[alla_keefek]

As someone just starting out in making mods for CM I find this all interesting. I have seen in mods for games like CC, that there is a READ ME and this will have a credit to such-n-such for the use of their mod as the basis of this mod.

I think it just boils down to a simple request email to the maker of the mod you may be using. Its just plain being polite as my good mother taught me to be

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"Alla Keefek" is a Brit soldier's corruption of an Arabic phrase. It

means "couldn't be bothered". A Firefly of the 4th County of London Yeomanry had it painted on the rear of the turret. This Firefly was knocked out by a Tiger from 501st SS.

[bfamily33]

Originally posted by bfamily33:

Hey:

Hoping I haven't offended anyone?

I guess if there's tremendous backlash against my stuff, I'll have to give serious consideration to keeping it off-line.

I've taken my issue offline and it appears I haven't offended anyone. I'm relieved. This appears to have been a non-specific request for etiquette. I will continue to plod along with a mod now and then. I'd hope others would pick up the urge too. That's all.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Terence:

Magnavox invented the Betamax. The first one was the size of a living room. Sony actually made is small and started selling them. But I take your point.

Nitpicking as usual,

Terence

Not nitpicking at all. Thank you for the correction; I realized I was at the mercy of the videotape grogs with my post - I'm glad I got it at least partly right.

Clubfoot - interesting perspective; CM is the first game I've played where mods were really an issue so I wasn't aware of the history of them, as far as that goed.

[Michael Dorosh]

edited for multiple posts

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 03-06-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

silly

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 03-06-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

little

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 03-06-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

server

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 03-06-2001).]

[bfamily33]

Originally posted by bfamily33:

Hey:

Hoping I haven't offended anyone?

I guess if there's tremendous backlash against my stuff, I'll have to give serious consideration to keeping it off-line.

I've taken my issue offline and it appears I haven't offended anyone. Whew! I'm relieved. This appears to have been a non-specific request for etiquette.

Clearly there are strong opinions on this.

As for me, I will continue to plod along with a mod now and then. I will continue to credit the original CMBO-BTS skins as I use them. That's all.

[Tiger]

This thread wasn't started by me and I don't think it was directed at anyone in particular either. What someone wrote in response to your reply bfamily33 was really hurtful and vindictive, and more than that it's simply not true. The poster was obviously relying on assumptions.

For what it's worth, I personally would prefer that if you're going to modify my mods for public consumption, please simply ask via an e-mail. Thank you.

-Tiger

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 03-06-2001).]

[Maximus]

Originally posted by Clubfoot:

To be frank, mod's made and released for FREE are NOT intellectual property and cannot really be claimed as such once released.

Having made mods for many games over the years, I can assure you that common etiquette for other games has never been to "seek permission" to use something that's free. A credit in a text doc. is all that's ever been expected.

The many makers of CM mods are quite talented and dedicated, but OWN nothing of what they release. Everybody here knows which mod's are Tiger mods, Marco mods or DeanCo mods, etc. If someone changes a Marco Sherman by simply adding a unit insignia and releases it, we all know.

I can understand people's desire to be asked permission to re-use and re-hash their work, but it's something that no other gaming community has ever done. People have modified others FREE work for ages and it's never been considered "rude and impolite" so long as the original author received a credit blurb. Understand that you are asking for something that no mod authors have ever asked for before you. Mods are supposed to be for FUN and for FREE, not for self-promotion and CM community "social climbing".

I suggest you let anyone fiddle with, alter, or destroy wholesale any work you've done. The results will speak for themselves, as Michael has stated.

None of this is meant to offend anyone, but we're all taking ourselves a little too seriously, methinks.

Clubfoot.

Exactly. It's funny how it seems that just Tiger here has a chip on his shoulder. As I stated early on in this thread is that a blub of credit in a readme *was* and *is* all that was necessary.

If I were to make a winterized StuG that was based on Tiger's mono-color StuG (of which I already have), do I need to go ask him for permission to release it even though I give him credit for the initial texture in the readme? I don't think so!

Just as Clubfoot has said, no gaming community has ever asked for more than just a bit of textual credit in a readme on a mod.

Tiger, if memory serves, you're somewhat of a young lad are you not? If so, please drop the ego trip here because it's getting annoying.

If anything if someone can take someone's elses work and change it around for a slightly different effect and then still give credit to the original work, isn't the original artist getting wider exposure?

Hell, Richard Tremblett's Velvet grass has undergone several variations and I doubt that anybody has ever asked him for permission to post it. Hell we all know it's Richard's original work.

So I stand by what I said originally. As long as you give credit to the original artist in your readme, then there should be no problem, unless you are on an ego trip as Tiger apparently is on now.

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"Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator

"Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot

"I do what I likes, and I likes what I do."--Darrell Hammond (portraying Bill Clinton), SNL

[Tiger]

No ego trip at all Maximus. You don't know me; you have no business judging me. You clearly have a big personality problem when people do not agree with you. This is a discussion forum after all. If you had read any of this thread you'd see that nobody has demanded anything. Except for you. And yes I have asked and received a reply from Richard Tremblett and he said it was ok to mod his grass:

"Hi John

I would like to thank you for your great mods. I am using several of your tanks. You have produced some of the best. You can mod my velvet grass or any other mod I have done for CM. Any new mods will make CM a better game for all.

Thanks again, good luck and have fun

Richard"

Why did I ask him? Because I respect the work he did on his velvet grass. I didn't have to, nobody demanded it. I thought it would be the polite thing to do.

I'm not going to get into age insults with you Maximus. As I've said you don't know me, you don't know my age.

-Tiger

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 03-06-2001).]

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Tiger:

As I've said you don't know me, you don't know my age.

B]

So how old are you? =)

K

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Hamsters at War!

Chicks With Tanks

Lorak's FTX

"I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka

The McNoldy Group

[Lordfluffers]

Ive come across this thread a little late, and have a feeling that it maybe directed against me for my JagdPanther and JagdPanzer IV based on Tiger's work.

Just a thought for new mod makers. Some people are modifying other people's work. Say Tiger's or Marcos. Perhaps changing the colors or zimmerat etc.

However I have asked Tigers permission to use his mods as a base and he gave his consent before I released anything. I hope this allays your concern, jd.

Once again though, a big thank you to Tiger for being generous enough to let me fiddle with his mods and release them.

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Juju:

The very thing happened to me only recently. A mod was released that was clearly based on an original mod (i.e. no BTS textures involved) of mine.

My permission wasn't asked (it would have been given, I assure you) and no credit was given.

I could say that I don't care. But in reality I did. A little.

At least I like my version better.

I agree with Tiger. I have this very small mod, that I based on another person's mod. But until I find out who the heck he is again, I'll use it for myself only.

Juju recently contacted me privately about this matter and as a result, I discovered that his tree base tiles #647-652 were the underlying basis for my similarly numbered tree base mods, as posted on The Last Defense and on CultureK's CM site.

I have in the past credited other's work in the origin of my own mods (e.g. Big DD's terrain is the inspiration for my speckled grass and is so credited) but in the case of this particular tree base mod, I honestly lost track of the original work and it's creator, that I'd modded to its present form.

As it was, once I'd received Juju's email, it took me quite a while to scour my hard disk before I tracked down the original zip file with Juju's bases on it, so I could see with my own eyes just what the heck he was referring to.

What I know now is that, in my zeal to mod and mod and mod, I'd overwritten the uncompressed files for his bases with the result that I could not later identify their origin or creator. A brain fart, as the saying goes, for which I'm sorry.

Having read the other posts in this topic, I must say that I agree that civility is a desireable trait in our little community. As far as I'm concerned, being honest by giving credit where it's due is also part of that expectation. And to be blunt, it's simply the right thing to do. The Golden Rule and all that icky stuff, you know...

Thank you, Juju, for your civil handling of my little snafu: I personally appreciate your tact and think you're a pretty class act.

Ed "gunnergoz"

[kump]

Ugh, Maximus...

Tiger is not asking for much, and its not unreasonable. However, your response by implying immaturity was a little extreme, don't you think?

Now I've had my public debate with Tiger on using his mods and I argued the general rights of users, but I'm in Tiger's corner when it comes to simply asking a mod author for using their mods as a form of polite respect. If they say no, then its up to you on how you proceed, but I'm hopeful the requesting modder will just go off and do something else.

There is no debate on user rights. Proper respect and politeness is the actual issue, and I'm all for treating the mod authors with the respect they deserve.

Tiger deserves the respect.

[jd]

Originally posted by Lordfluffers:

....and have a feeling that it maybe directed against me for my JagdPanther and JagdPanzer IV based on Tiger's work..... I hope this allays your concern, jd.

LF-

Not aimed at you. Your posting was only the catalyst to a thought that actually had it's origins in a prior mod discussion on the forum some time ago. I have noticed that more and more mods are being made and often in our initial excitement we don't consider others or how they may or may not feel. Thus I thought a mere "suggestion" had merit. Perhaps to raise the collective consciousness of our community. To make others aware that there is at least an issue to consider, perhaps reflect on the best course rather on what we do without thought. Nothing more. BTW liked your mods!

[This message has been edited by jd (edited 03-08-2001).]