Mod Making Etiquette.....

[jd]

Just a thought for new mod makers. Some people are modifying other people's work. Say Tiger's or Marcos. Perhaps changing the colors or zimmerat etc.

I'd hope that before you make such mods of mods available to the public at large that you seek the permission of the mod artist whose work you are modifying.

If they don't give you permission then I'd hope you do not release it. I'd also suggest that sending it to them and soliciting their comments might also be a good idea before making it public.

I am sure that most will not with hold permission but I think etiquette suggests that you at least ask first.

[Maximus]

Well how is that any different than modding the original BTS textures. I don't recall having to ask BTS's permission to mod their textures.

As long as you give credit to the author from which mod you have made yours from, then there should be no problem.

[Tiger]

Because the mod-maker has put alot of effort into his creation. The original textures were paid for when the game was purchased. If they didn't want the textures to be changeable they could have hard-coded everything. Thank BTS that they didn't.

Using someone else's mod without asking is rude and impolite, and will only lead to bad things.

The suggestions jd makes are good guidlines. It depends on a person's character whether or not people care to follow them.

-Tiger

[Guest Rob/1]

I agree with Tiger

[Michael Dorosh]

This is all not for profit, yes?

I am not about to modify other people's modifications without permission, but I don't know that it should be considered "mandatory." I think, if offered for public consumption, a credit to the original artist would be sufficient to satisfy honour.

I would suggest permission from the webmaster on which the mods are hosted would be in order, however, or at the very least, a link to that site offered along with the credit to the artist.

[Juju]

The very thing happened to me only recently. A mod was released that was clearly based on an original mod (i.e. no BTS textures involved) of mine.

My permission wasn't asked (it would have been given, I assure you) and no credit was given.

I could say that I don't care. But in reality I did. A little.

At least I like my version better.

I agree with Tiger. I have this very small mod, that I based on another person's mod. But until I find out who the heck he is again, I'll use it for myself only.

[Maximus]

Originally posted by Tiger:

Because the mod-maker has put alot of effort into his creation.

-Tiger

Well so did BTS, so to speak. Remember they made every original texture with the exception of CCJ's M18.

As long as you give credit to the artist who made the mod, there is NO problem. Just like Michael has said, this is all non-profit stuff. So to ask permission to modify free public domain stuff is redundant. If someone wants to modify my stuff to make it better or whatnot, then fine. Hell, I'll probably use it myself.

[kump]

Oh boy, here we go again.

Mods are public domain. Period. BUT, if you don't afford the original modder the courtesy of respect and acknowledge their work by asking permission, well, it just may PO the original artist to just quit making mods. You want to see Tiger stop making mods? Heck NO!!! Are you nuts?

It doesn't hurt to ask, and if the answer is no, then do what the previous modder did, work with the original CM mod. If your worth your salt, you can do that. You don't need someone else's hard work to use as a crutch to put out your own mod.

You still may have something worthy to add to a previously made mod. That is good. Let the original mod author judge it and decide. Its common courtesy.

Now, if you want to be rude and crude and deliver a slightly changed mod without the okay of the mod author who did 95% of the work, you have the non-moral right to do so. But be ready for the response. Damn! Ever notice that you can't find a match when you have the flame thrower equiped and ready for action?

[Tanks a Lot]

We need to make a distiction between editing somebody's mod for personal use and editing somebody's mod and making that mod available to the public. I have slightly modified some of Tiger's great work, but I never would make it available to the public without his permission.

[Guest SS Peiper]

Originally posted by kump:

Oh boy, here we go again.

Mods are public domain. Period. BUT, if you don't afford the original modder the courtesy of respect and acknowledge their work by asking permission, well, it just may PO the original artist to just quit making mods. You want to see Tiger stop making mods? Heck NO!!! Are you nuts?

It doesn't hurt to ask, and if the answer is no, then do what the previous modder did, work with the original CM mod. If your worth your salt, you can do that. You don't need someone else's hard work to use as a crutch to put out your own mod.

You still may have something worthy to add to a previously made mod. That is good. Let the original mod author judge it and decide. Its common courtesy.

Now, if you want to be rude and crude and deliver a slightly changed mod without the okay of the mod author who did 95% of the work, you have the non-moral right to do so. But be ready for the response. Damn! Ever notice that you can't find a match when you have the flame thrower equiped and ready for action?

I agree with Kump and Tiger. I have made some changes to some mods for my use that I think are very good but I would not post it as I have never ask the Mod author if it was OK. I think to ask the author is the right thing to do.

SS Peiper

[bfamily33]

Hey:

Hoping I haven't offended anyone? It's common knowledge my mods are based on the original CMBO camo skins/patterns. I've tweaked the colors mostly. I've noted that in my posts and in my readme files.

If I've crossed someone, please let me know. It was not intentional. One outstanding modder, assuming he remembers, knows I approached him about releasing a grey stug a few months back. I used his suspension and spare track. Because he had concerns, I told him I would not make it available to the public.

Again, if it's any of my work please drop me a line. I don't know who the original CMBO artist(s) are but again I have given credit to the original CMBO-BTS skins.

I guess if there's tremendous backlash against my stuff, I'll have to give serious consideration to keeping it off-line.

[This message has been edited by bfamily33 (edited 03-05-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by bfamily33:

One outstanding modder, assuming he remembers, knows I approached him about releasing a grey stug a few months back. I used his suspension and spare track. Because he had concerns, I told him I would not make it available to the public.

(edited 03-05-2001).]

Let's stop and consider how remarkably shortsighted and selfish this was on the part of the un-named modder.

I always thought people made mods so that others could benefit from their skill and enjoy the game more, spreading good words about it, drawing more people into the fold, etc.

I didn't realize it was an ego trip. While I would expect anyone using my mods, for example, to give a credit (as Shadow 1st Hussars has done on his site), I certainly wouldn't be so pompous as to deny anyone else permission to utilize them as the basis for other works - whether better or not.

The whole point of free mods was to express some generousity - sharing time and talents. If that only extends to using the work of one or two people, that hurts us all.

As for the expressed fear about talented artists "quitting" - if the attitude is that mods are the exclusive domain of one or two artists, perhaps it is best that those who feel this way do quit. If someone has an improvement to an existing mod, even if just a couple of rivets on a roadwheel, or a new headlight mount, or what have you, it only benefits all of us to be given the choice of downloading it. The same goes for a grey StuG version.

And what better way to get advertising for your own work, than having others offer variations on it and crediting you directly, as well as linking to the site where the originals can be found? If money was involved, I can see this being an issue, but its not. So why limit your potential audience?

If you ask me, whoever denied you permission to use his work really dropped the ball - not to mention cheating the rest of us out of what could have been a popular mod.

One of the many things I like about Marco is that he shares his ideas, and encourages others in their work. Healthy for all of us, and you know, he still maintains his reputation as one of the top artists.

[bfamily33]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Let's stop and consider how remarkably shortsighted and selfish this was on the part of the un-named modder.

....

If you ask me, whoever denied you permission to use his work really dropped the ball - not to mention cheating the rest of us out of what could have been a popular mod.

Mike:

I agree with your thoughts but I want to be clear, that individual did NOT deny me permission to post or circulate that grey stug. It was my call not to make that mod available for download. I repect his work and he had valid concerns. In fact, his feedback to me only served to encourage me to do further mods. If you wish to call someone short-sighted, it's proably me for not going back and removing his suspension and spare track and then releasing the mod to the public.

[Michael Dorosh]

I should also add that the work of people like Tiger is going to speak for itself. Anyone else trying to pawn off simple reworks of his, without credit, isn't going to last ten seconds out there; Tiger is held in such high esteem, that no one would be fooling anybody,

While I am not saying I agree with intellectual theft, I also don't see the point in being overly possessive over free mods. Basically, it comes down to this: if you don't want people using it, don't put it on the Internet.

[Tiger]

Michael Dorosh, you don't know the whole story, so stop assuming.

bfamily33 showed me a mod of his and asked if he could use some track links I did on a previous mod. I said no he should probably do his own, as he would learn more and get more satisfaction. I also suggested to him that he should do more than just a color change to the source he was using, and add weathering, etc. He asked me for help/suggestions, I gave it, and apparently it worked out. Great. I still have the same advice for anyone wanting to use parts off other people's mods: It's not that difficult and most of the time you'll make something better than what you wanted to use. And sounding like a broken record, "just have the courtesy to freakin ask to use people's mods". If that's too much to ask just say so.

Basically, it comes down to this: if you don't want people using it, don't put it on the Internet.

Why should this apply just to the internet? Everything should be free and non-transferrable. Intellectual and artistically created objects should have no value or ownership. Their creators have no rights once they show someone. Great incentive for artists of the world.

I think I'll make my own "combat mission" game: break into the code, and release my version for free. I'll give BTS due credit of course. Heck if they didn't want this to happen they shouldn't have released the game.

-Tiger

~ps I think I see a solution. When I make a mod I'll post pictures and then direct people with site's to my e-bay listing for each mod where they can bid to place them on their site. That way they won't be "free" anymore. Let's see. How's a minimum of $100 sound (got to keep away the riff-raff)? Of course there'll be a delay as I try to obtain copyrights for each mod.

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 03-05-2001).]

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

Guys,

Let me chime in to say thanks to all the mod makers, you have truly enhanced my CM experience and many others.. I totally agree with your point, and I was ambitious enough to make mods, (and possibly base my work off of other people's work), I would certainly ask permission, out of common courtesy.

But realise that making these sorts of requests will have very low yields.

1 in 10 players might take it to heart...

7 in 10 already agree with you...

and the other 2 guys wouldnt understand what courtesy and manners are if their life depended on it. There is no use asking a typical bastard not to be a bastard. It makes you tired and weary, and revs up the bastard for even greater heights of bastardliness....

Thanks again guys...

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Tiger:

~ps I think I see a solution. When I make a mod I'll post pictures and then direct people with site's to my e-bay listing for each mod where they can bid to place them on their site. That way they won't be "free" anymore. Let's see. How's a minimum of $100 sound (got to keep away the riff-raff)? Of course there'll be a delay as I try to obtain copyrights for each mod

No, no, no. Why involve ebay? I have the solution. We'll get all the mod makers to join together in a group and only post mods on one site . . . gee, mine would seem suitable . . . that's password protected and charge a monthly membership fee to get in. =)

Kitty

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Hamsters at War!

Chicks With Tanks

Lorak's FTX

"I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka

The McNoldy Group

[jd]

Originally posted by Kitty:

.....and only post mods on one site . . . gee, mine would seem suitable . . . that's password protected and charge a monthly membership fee to get in. =)

Awright a mod porn site!!!

Perhaps this discussion will highlight that creative people care about what they do. How it's perceived and gee, maybe a word of acknowledgment. Not sking permission to modify the creative work of another and then to pass it along in the public is rude (Note I am not talking about for your own use here) At a minimum I think we all agree that attribution is necessary. I am "suggesting" for new modders who have not thought about this issue before the "Miss Manners" says, always check.

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If frogs had uzi's, snakes woudn't mess with them so much. - Hiram

[This message has been edited by jd (edited 03-05-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

And sounding like a broken record, "just have the courtesy to freakin ask to use people's mods". If that's too much to ask just say so.

I never disagreed with anyone on this point. I am a big fan of courtesy.

Why should this apply just to the internet? Everything should be free and non-transferrable. Intellectual and artistically created objects should have no value or ownership. Their creators have no rights once they show someone. Great incentive for artists of the world.

There is a line to be drawn. BTS entered into this as a for profit venture. The people whose stuff wound up on Napster did too. Actually, the thread we had going on Napster was interesting - many said that they used the site to demo stuff, then ended up buying the CD anyway. I don't agree with that (if the original artist had intended to give it away free, they would have - which is exactly what you're doing).

I think I'll make my own "combat mission" game: break into the code, and release my version for free. I'll give BTS due credit of course. Heck if they didn't want this to happen they shouldn't have released the game.

If you really think you can improve on CM, go ahead, but BTS does have a copyright. If you come up with something significantly better (doubtful for many reasons) I am not sure the copyright would apply (ie the end result would have to be significantly different). If your version of CM was significantly different (just as if someone's mod of your mod was significantly different) then the person who changed it should get credit - they did the majority of the work. Does Sony get a royalty for every VCR sold because they invented the Betamax? No - someone else improved it, pretty much using the original idea.

~ps I think I see a solution. When I make a mod I'll post pictures and then direct people with site's to my e-bay listing for each mod where they can bid to place them on their site. That way they won't be "free" anymore. Let's see. How's a minimum of $100 sound (got to keep away the riff-raff)? Of course there'll be a delay as I try to obtain copyrights for each mod.

I don't use your mods now - I just don't have much interest in German armour - so I wouldn't pay to not use them, either. If that makes me riff-raff, so be it.

If you do go that route, I wish you well. I am sure you would generate quite a bit of interest.

[Kitty]

jd: i'm what exactly what happened to start this thread in the first place? `

Kitty

------------------

Hamsters at War!

Chicks With Tanks

Lorak's FTX

"I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka

The McNoldy Group

[WendellM]

As for who has the right to mod what...

The License in the front of the CM manual states: "The enclosed Software and manual are copyrighted. [...] No duplicate part of this Software, CD-ROM, or manual may be copied or stored concurrently in more than one place at any time, including a second hard disk, duplicate CD-ROM, Internet site, or any other means [...] You may not reverse-engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Software."

OK. Clearly Sentence One means that BTS has the legal right to everything on the CM CD. Sentence Three expressly prohibits any mods, since the bitmaps and sound effetcs are part of the Software. And Sentence Two states that there can only be one CM CD on the planet. So, only Steve or Charles may play (not both) and everyone else must destroy their CD's. Aren't copyright laws fun?

Tongue mostly in cheek (where not prohibited by law and where no duplicate tongue exists ),

Wendell

[Clubfoot]

To be frank, mod's made and released for FREE are NOT intellectual property and cannot really be claimed as such once released.

Having made mods for many games over the years, I can assure you that common etiquette for other games has never been to "seek permission" to use something that's free. A credit in a text doc. is all that's ever been expected.

The many makers of CM mods are quite talented and dedicated, but OWN nothing of what they release. Everybody here knows which mod's are Tiger mods, Marco mods or DeanCo mods, etc. If someone changes a Marco Sherman by simply adding a unit insignia and releases it, we all know.

I can understand people's desire to be asked permission to re-use and re-hash their work, but it's something that no other gaming community has ever done. People have modified others FREE work for ages and it's never been considered "rude and impolite" so long as the original author received a credit blurb. Understand that you are asking for something that no mod authors have ever asked for before you. Mods are supposed to be for FUN and for FREE, not for self-promotion and CM community "social climbing".

I suggest you let anyone fiddle with, alter, or destroy wholesale any work you've done. The results will speak for themselves, as Michael has stated.

None of this is meant to offend anyone, but we're all taking ourselves a little too seriously, methinks.

Clubfoot.

[Terence]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Does Sony get a royalty for every VCR sold because they invented the Betamax? No - someone else improved it, pretty much using the original idea. .

Magnavox invented the Betamax. The first one was the size of a living room. Sony actually made is small and started selling them. But I take your point.

Nitpicking as usual,

Terence

[mensch]

I agree with tiger, I dl his tiger and loved his detail, I added some dirt and grime, changed the painting to factory yellow, added meshing and leaves... was happy.. I mailed him and waited over a month till I heard from him to release it with credit to him on the base skin. I could have posted it early but thats not my style.. being a designer and artist that touches a nerve when someone steals your work and pastes thier name on it... and with the new digital laws being made one can get in real trouble doing that even though you think they are public.

[Tiger]

I think the 'ps' of my post was obviously tongue-in-cheek.

..."it's something that no other gaming community has ever done. "

check any of the skinning sites for FPS games, and level design sites. Heck check the small print at the bottom of any internet site, including most fan sites. It's rude to use other people's hard work. Period. I think the problem is that you place no value on other people's work, be it legally copyrighted or not, be it made available for free or not. I make my mods available for the community because I like to think a few people may want to use them to enhance their game the way they see fit.

It matters not to me Michael that you don't use my mods, but saying so in this kind of argument is really a cheap shot.

I do not expect to have minor details redone by someone else and have it released as an "improved" version. It has nothing to do with an "ego" trip or being selfish. It's rude no matter how much you try to bend it so that it's "for the betterment of the community". My take has always been just have the common courtesy to ask the original modder, and with me I will usually say "go for it!" and then tell you that you could probably do better doing it yourself and learn more in the process and get more satisfaction, which has been true so far.

There's no threat to quit modding, it's probably something I'll do through CM2 if possible. If there's a overall lack of respect for other's hard work (and I do not believe there is a lack) though there's no incentive to keep doing it though.

"Understand that you are asking for something that no mod authors have ever asked for before you"

Do you see the small print on Madmatt's CMHQ site, et.al.?

You want to make me out as the "bad guy" here for asking for common courtesy then so be it. I think it speaks volumes of your lack of character from people so concerned with the good of the community.

-John