Slapdragon Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Originally posted by Gordon: Lord General MB, Unfortunately it's not simple. I have absolutely no problem with anyone (or everyone for that matter) disliking a particular mod of mine. I do them first and foremost for myself, for the satisfaction of doing them, and then if they pass my own internal muster, I share them with others in the hopes that they will also find enjoyment in them. However, I will take exception, and defend, my mods when their authenticity is questioned. I can provide photographic and/or research evidence supporting each and every mod I've created. You seem to be arguing both sides of the realism debate, first that you don't care about realistic treatments and then that the treatments you've seen aren't realistic. Gordon I have a picture of some tankers throwing buckets of white wash onto a TD, making the TD look just like Gordon and other's mods. I also have an M8 the spitting image of the M4s camo wise. I will post them as proof if anyone wants, but the point of camo was not to be pretty but to reduce visibility. With some of the fancier German schemes I think pretty was what they were aiming for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 I think there are two different ways of approaching winterized US vehicles. One way is to show them with white paint and/or white wash, whether completely colored white or brushed on haphazardly. (The bedsheet method doesn't seem to be feasible.) The other approach is to show the vehicles in their normal OD but with a layer of snow and ice in the appropriate places, such as Magua did with his half tracks. I think the snowed on look is cool, and it can't be called unrealistic because they are just regular vehicles with snow on them. The white washed or painted look is a matter of taste as it seems there were several methods used to camoflage the vehicles. I like some of the white washed versions and I am no so crazy about others, but I definitely like Magua's half tracks, so that is the look I would like to see more of. A mixture of both types of winterized vehicles is also nice. I also like Fernando's winter PzIVs with the worn white washed look. It would be nice to see that effect combined with the snow effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 bfamily33 where did you get the M24 Chaffee winter mod from??? I've spent ages looking for one!! Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfamily33 Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 The Chaffee is Fernando's. I'm not sure it was ever posted for download. Perhaps he'll make it available soon as it is first rate. It looks nice beside Magua's haltracks. He may even have a Pershing but I haven't been able to confirm that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Soldiers, I'd like to apoligise to Gordon if it cam across that I hated his MODs. That was not the entended meaning of my last post. If poeple like Gordons style of winter MODs and use them then fine. Keep on making them. Right now I'm happy using no allied winter scheme atall (just a matter of taste). I would however like to see the normal allied armour made to look more winterey by being covered in a layer of snow. Thats what I'm getting at. If Gordons style is realistic (i.e. was actaully used by tankers) then fine. I (again a matter of taste) don't like the way that those type of mods fit in with the CM winter envoirement. Realstic it may be, but (to me) it is not very pleaseing to the eye. In response to Dragon's post: I feel that (as mentioned above) the realisim factor of the allied camo scheme does not fit with the CM envroiment. When I say I want realsim I'm reffering NOT to the style used but, as Pvt Ryan pointed out: The realsim of snow on the vehichles. That is realistic is it not? Vehicles got snow on them.... ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magua Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 I'm a bit surprised thre have not been more non-camo allied vehicle mods as it would appear to be the historical norm. I also prefer the look as I think it suggests that the the allies are a little unprepared for the conditions(as opposed to the Germans who have all those Russian front veterans in their ranks). Having said that though if I knew a certain unit had winter camo in a historical scenario (like those snow-suited British/Canadian infantry just released)then I will happily load up the mod and enjoy the extra authenticity it provides. But thats whats so great about having all these mods, you can tailor your own copy of the game to suit your vision (or version!) of WW2. I will get back to the allied vehicles at some point as they are my favorites (US Recce stuff and the British armour!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Bergman Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 LGMB, could you please explain to me why the snow only falls onto Allied vehicles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Originally posted by Magua: I also prefer the look as I think it suggests that the the allies are a little unprepared for the conditions(as opposed to the Germans who have all those Russian front veterans in their ranks). Magua, Interesting, according to Wise ("D-Day to Berlin"), "1942 (U.S. Army) regulations stipulated camouflage painting for snow areas as precise patterns of white and black, or white and olive drab, and when the first snows came in the winter of 1944-45 some U.S. Army vehicles were camouflaged accordingly. However, the snows coincided with the last great German offensive of the war, in the Ardennes, and in the front line particularly a variety of hurried and improvised methods were used." Now, according to the same book, the British regulations specifically forbade application of white paint or whitewash from being applied directly on vehicles and weapons due to the variability of snow conditions in NWE. However, the British units largely ignored these orders. So I'm not sure where your expectation that the Allied armies where unprepared for winter fighting comes from. Unprepared for the German offensive? Yes. Unprepared for winter? I'm not so sure. Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 The problem with the white Shermans is the absence of shadow effects. They look not only white-washed, but as though, through the magic of Stay-Bright Cleanser, they were emitting in the 100 watt bulb range. LOL. The sides of the turret and the sides of the hull should be grayer, not the same white. Not because the paint was, nor just because of wear, but because light does not fall as directly on those parts of the vehicle. Even whitewash looks greyish in shadow. The starkness of the green showing through in the alternates, also has this "flat" effect, as though one is seeing just the pattern, and not shading. Use more grey. Shade. The verticle surfaces in particular. Have the "underlying" colors be pale, worn green but also light grey, for the drab of weak, thin coats of whitewash in shadow. If you look at the beautiful snowed HTs, part of the reason the scheme works is that it differentiates parts of the vehicle surface. You can tell how long the nose of the track is, for example, just in the snow scheme. The result is a more 3-D feel. I am no artists, and couldn't begin to do it myself. But you know the saying - everyone's a critic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Soldier, Marco: Snow doesn't have to fall on Axis vehicles. They already look like thay have snow on them. jasoncawley@ameritech.net: You make a point. I agree about the 100 watt thing. They look too clean. Like their straight off the assembly line. Too much all around white colour. Gordon: When the snow came The allies were totaly unprepared. This is stated very clearly in Stephen E. Ambrose's "Citezen Soldier." I guess that the Germans were unprepared too. But having fought on the eastern front some of them would certanly know what too do in the event of a winter war. Camo had been used before on the Russain front. The allies had not used winter camo before. Therefore there armour (Generally) would look less professoinally cammoed out then the German Armour. ::::takes breath:::: This all results in the Allied armour looking white washed (hasty) or not camoed atall. leaving them covered int eh onyl thing that can be done with no effort: SNOW. ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army [This message has been edited by Lord General MB (edited 02-05-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 LGMB, I see you are a graphic artist. Have you thought about trying to do some mods? I would try if I had the tools. I understand you at least need Photo Shop, and I am not going to spend $600 to try my hand at modding. I already bought a new computer just to play this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted February 5, 2001 Share Posted February 5, 2001 Originally posted by Lord General MB: Soldier, Marco: Snow doesn't have to fall on Axis vehicles. They already look like thay have snow on them. jasoncawley@ameritech.net: You make a point. I agree about the 100 watt thing. They look too clean. Like their straight off the assembly line. Too much all around white colour. Gordon: When the snow came The allies were totaly unprepared. This is stated very clearly in Stephen E. Ambrose's "Citezen Soldier." I guess that the Germans were unprepared too. But having fought on the eastern front some of them would certanly know what too do in the event of a winter war. Camo had been used before on the Russain front. The allies had not used winter camo before. Therefore there armour (Generally) would look less professoinally cammoed out then the German Armour. ::::takes breath:::: This all results in the Allied armour looking white washed (hasty) or not camoed atall. leaving them covered int eh onyl thing that can be done with no effort: SNOW. LG MB (and jasoncrawley): Are you referring to my prototype whitewashed Shermans or to existing winter Sherman mods. If mine, you'll see that across the various makes of Shermans you'll see 3 separate and distinct whitewash styles. Also, the level and type of lighting dramatically effects the perceived brightness of an object (remember the various debates over the "light side"/"Dark side" terrain mods? Under stark, harsh winter sunlight a whitewashed tank in the sun would probably blind you, whereas under a diffuse overcast glow of light it would tend to wash out and lose all sense of depth. Unfortunately there is no one answer to this problem until the game engine has advanced to the point of providing dynamic lighting. Regarding preparedness, there are levels of preparedness. The Germans went through an entire Russian winter without being able to re-equip their forces for the conditions. I've read accounts from soldiers who were re-equiped with winter shoe packs (felt boot liners) in the middle of the battle of the bulge. There was also significant use of winter camo smocks by allied infantry during the same period as well. It's doubtful that these guys carried this equipment all the way from the D-Day beaches. You only supply your guys with equipment as its needed. It was just this level of logistics support that won the allies the war (at least on the western front). Also, please bear in mind that these are not necessarily bulge-specific mods, but meant to cover the entire winter of '44-'45, and as such represent a significantly longer period than the battle of the bulge itself. But, regardless, I think we can agree to disagree. And I've never taken any comments regarding any of my mods personally. I just like to express my point of view as well. Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Sir, Well spoke. I guess all I can do is wait for someone to see it the way I do. Ryan: I guess that should be "3D Graphics artist" I'm not to big on 2D stuff... sorry. ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kump Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 (Stepping up to the podium after the Lord General sits down) I think the truth is out as well. After this lively discussion, I realized the summer hi-res mods just look too good to replace with lo-res winter ones or, more importantly, white washed ones that hide detail and make the model harder to see. Hey, I know, get with reality. But I love this game. And yes, I love the graphics, and truth be known, its all Bergman's fault. That's right, Bergman did it to us! His mods are too damn beautiful! They have ruined me! I have deleted ALL of my winter mods so I can have his mods all the time, year round, day or night. Sorry, even if Bergman's mods were white washed, they still hide too much. Only one wonderful winter vehicle mod have I not deleted. Magua's HTs. Why not? They are the same wonderful summer mods with snow and ice applied. Beautiful! They can't be touched. I'm with Lord General, I would love to see more vehicles, German included, that had the snowed on effect. I stink at graphics, but I'd love to learn this technique myself, then all my favorite summer mods would get snow and ice! I thank the mod authors who did winter vehicle mods. Even the white washed ones. They really do look good and show great work. But Marco Bergman, well, he really made the summer mods just TOO GOOD. Shame on him! Just way too much talent and he excelled way too far. Spoiled me, that's what he did, spoiled me rotten. And Magua? He should be ashamed too! Now I can't look at winter mods without using his HTs as the measuring stick. What a fantastic job! And now we know what can be done. Who could help but want more? Sometimes, I wish I had remained in the dark. But its too late. I've seen the light. And its beautiful! More SNOW and ICE!!! A snow blinded fan, Garry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan: LGMB, I see you are a graphic artist. Have you thought about trying to do some mods? I would try if I had the tools. I understand you at least need Photo Shop, and I am not going to spend $600 to try my hand at modding. I already bought a new computer just to play this game. I bought Print Shop Photo Pro for 40 dollars Canadian and it does everything I want it to. You could do mods in the Windows Paint program if you really wanted, though it would be a pain. Print Shop Photo Pro, however, will do tons of stuff - colorize, tint, lighten, darken, sharpen, etc. It's addictive once you start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 It looks like there is a free 30 day trial. I guess I will try it when I get inspired. Actually the free trial is for Paint Shop Pro. I misread your post. Is Paint Shop Pro a good modding tool as well? [This message has been edited by Pvt. Ryan (edited 02-05-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Bergman Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 For Garry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 unbelievable! (trying to get mouth shut) asides: when they start to burn, what happpens to the snow? ------------------ ----------------------- Croda: "You hang out with a guy named "Warphead?" "Nuts!" " visit lindan.panzershark.com www.jagdtiger.de Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SS Peiper Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 HOT DAMM !!!! that looks GREAT!!! Marco you are the man!!! SS Peiper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 They're COOL! Where can one get them??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 That's the way, uh huh, uh huh, I like it, uh huh, uh huh. - KC and the Sunshine Band http://www.heykcsb.com/album/the_best_of06.ram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kump Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 I'm literally in tears. Hey, Lord General MB, where the heck are you? Can you see it? Can you believe it?!? What can I say? I'll be installing winter mods again! An exceptional piece of work and Bergman mods all year round baby!!! Snow and Ice, its beautiful. Hi-lights those Shermans well! Very much looking forward to this one. And thanks Marco, your a hero, and a wonderfully talented one as well! Garry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Sir, WOW!!! Thank you!!! OMG!!! I will be Dl'ing those faster then a free copy of CM2!!!!!!!! WERE ARE THEY!????????? THANK YOU! ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Oz Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 I have the Halftracks. Will the Shermans be made available? Pretty Please!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Sir, WOW. Stunned. I have to say that those are JUST what I've been asking for! Not too real I know.... But who cares! Those are just amazing! Lots of detail, not hidden by white wash... and why not go all the way? Why not have the Germans done too? Gary is right! More More More! Thank you very much.... ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts