Forward Observers and Snipers

[Redmow]

Now that I have CM, I have been playing almost non-stop since Saturday afternoon. Here are a couple of things I would like to see utilised in future CM products. The first is the ability for FO's to get up in a church steeple...a 3rd level per se. I would also like to see snipers come into play...not as a represented troop but more as a percentage chance per turn or battle. Once one turns up, you have to designate his position in the orders phase, but you cannot direct his fire and yes, he can be targeted and killed if the enemy spots him. I am uncomfortable with the idea of being able to purchase a sniper in Quick Battles...better left up to chance such as in Advanced Squad Leader. And now a question...How can I get my troops to dig foxholes? If the ground is not frozen, troops can dig a foxhole relatively quickly. Slit trenches would be cool, but would have to be there at the beginning of the game. Or? You tell me. One last thing...I found an awesome picture on the net from WWII. A Sherman Firefly idling at the edge of a pasture where 2 Germans are running to the right of the tank and they are on fire. One of the crewman of the tank has the 50 cal. pointed at them but is not firing. Sobering picture. Later...and NEVER FORGET our fellow Americans that died in combat in all wars!

[Phoenix]

Im gonna say it now and get it out of the way.

Hi Mom!!

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redmow:

The first is the ability for FO's to get up in a church steeple...a 3rd level per se. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahem, all of CM's buildings as well as terrain is a mere ABSTRACTION of reality. All LARGE buildings are supposed to represent more than 2 levels. Church is a large building.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I would also like to see snipers come into play...not as a represented troop but more as a percentage chance per turn or battle. Once one turns up, you have to designate his position in the orders phase, but you cannot direct his fire and yes, he can be targeted and killed if the enemy spots him. I am uncomfortable with the idea of being able to purchase a sniper in Quick Battles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any reasons why you're uncomfortable with being able to purchase a sniper during QBs?

Your proposal sounds IMHO even more like an abstraction to an abstraction.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

How can I get my troops to dig foxholes? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In scenarions where you defend you will get automatic foxholes after deploying your troops.

You cannot dig foxhole or trenches during QBs. With most QBs lasting only half an hour the infantry wouldave to dig REALLY fast.

Perhaps we will see something lik ethat in CM2.

PS: Not to offend you, but I don't like your signature...

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Londoner]

The picture you describe sounds more tragic than "awesome" to me.

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: Londoner ]

[Redmow]

1. I think a 3rd level for a church steeple would be realistic. Many times a retreating force would destroy church steeples to deny their use to the enemy as a FO site. The battle for Noville is a prime example...when the paratroops pulled out of Noville, they blew the steeple of that church. Abstractions aside, a 3rd level would give observers a greater range of sight and thus reach.

2. Why not be able to purchase snipers? In many battle stories told by the men who fought there, snipers tended to pop up in the heat of battle. Sure, there were those who carried sniper rifles because that was their job, but they were not available for the beck and call of local commanders. Mostly they were expert marksmen who saw an opportunity to take a position and snipe at enemy leaders. Such as myself. I was an expert marksmen in the US Army but I was not sought after for special operations. I was given an M16 and told to kill the closest enemy targets first.

3. I am sorry that you do not like my sig but I do. I have a profound respect for the 101st and 82nd Airborne divisions. I do see you are from Germany or reside there. So I guess I can understand being that I am speaking of Germans. But let me say up front that I hold no ill will toward Germans...my wife is German. She is from the town of Herzogenaurach, close to Erlangen by Nurnberg. She had a relative that fought in Russia in WWII. He told me he was motorized infantry and rode in an armoured halftrack. And with great pride he told me the letter G was on that vehicle...for Guderian. I had tremendous respect for him and we would talk of those terrible days often. Sadly, he has passed away but I will remember him for the rest of my life.

Last but not least, I hope you do not take me the wrong way...I value friends above all else...take care.

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redmow:

One last thing...I found an awesome picture on the net from WWII. A Sherman Firefly idling at the edge of a pasture where 2 Germans are running to the right of the tank and they are on fire. One of the crewman of the tank has the 50 cal. pointed at them but is not firing. Sobering picture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm, it is protocol to put up links to things like this. Please.

MrSpkr

[BloodyBucket]

Odd how I can relish the thought of crushing my CM enemy but references to real violence make me wince.

I am just as guilty. My father was an infantryman in the 28th and his horrible stories fascinate me. I even posted one.

I don't see digging a textbook fighting hole in the CM timeframe without the aid of machinery or explosives. I like snipers the way they are, the thought of taking random casualties doesn't make my toes twirl. In game terms, if you want to deny an enemy FO the steeple of a church, blow up the building. A third building level would be nice, to represent really tall structures, but modelling damage to part of a building is probably tricky, so I imagine it would be just like a regular building when calculating damage.

[Dunnee]

Snipers need a little tweeking. They get a max of 15 shots, and they are expert marksmen, so it should be one shot, one kill. If a sniper shoots his whole ammo load, there should be 15 dead soldiers to his credit. Any sniper worth his snot doesn't shoot until the shot is a kill shot, if he's at long range. Maybe under a certain distance, his one shot, one kill percentage would go down to simulate his having to shoot rapidly and displace frequently to avoid getting zeroed and killed. I don't know, that's just my beef, I've had snipers blast their whole load and not do a damn thing. . .

[chrisl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dunnee:

Snipers need a little tweeking...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has come up a bunch of times-- BTS makes a distinction between snipers and sharpshooters. Snipers are special (and rare) troops who will spend days setting up a single shot, and are indeed the one shot, one kill kind of guy you refer to. Sharpshooters are just the best shots in the platoon and who are given a slightly better rifle with a scope and told to go pick off officers, arty spotters, tank commanders, and other high value targets whose destruction might be especially demoralizing. Snipers are not in CM, sharpshooters are. Sharpshooters ammo in CM is abstracted somewhat-- people have reported losing multiple individuals out of a unit for a single ammo point expended. Think of it more as sharpshooters having 10 or so turns worth of firing, rather than 10 "shots".

[Dunnee]

Then why aren't sharpshooters directly attached to a unit used in a particular game. Maybe crack and elite squads should include a "sharpshooter". But as is, this "sharpshooter", and I'm well aware of BTS's stance on this, is a single, independent unit. WHY? Do single men of an infantry squad who are good shots just strike off on their own?

[chrisl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dunnee:

Then why aren't sharpshooters directly attached to a unit used in a particular game. ... Do single men of an infantry squad who are good shots just strike off on their own?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They're much like other support teams (MGs, light mortars, LATW, etc.)- they're part of the unit but expected to operate much more independently, since they may be off to the back or side (or front) of the main action providing cover/disruption/etc. rather than moving in on the assault with the platoon or defending the MLR. They're basically sent off on their own-- that's why they cost more than the guys in the squads who are just good shots.

[Loki]

I too would like to see snipers depicted better in the game. Given the fact that in Stallingrad whole sections of the city couldn't have troops move in due to sniper fire, I do hope they are modelled better in CM2.

[Marnix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redmow:

...and NEVER FORGET our fellow Americans that died in combat in all wars!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, glad to see someone has those covered! Anyone care to remember anyone else?

[KMHPaladin]

Yo guys, someone comes in, obviously a newbie, and makes what he obviously thinks are justified and earnest suggestions. Instead of kindly pointing out what you think is wrong with his ideas, you jump all over them. Jesus christ, you even attack him for trying to remember veterans. Show a little class, would you?

[Gyrene]

Marnix, you are from Netherlands, so go ahead and add to your signature a memorial for all Dutch who died defending Holland. Neither me or anybody else will jump on you for doing so, so there's no need to jump on Redmow for having something positive to say about American veterans in his post.

Too many people in this forum like to point out with great glee how German heavy tanks could so easily brew up "soda cans" but in my opinion it took a much greater amount of cojones to jump in a Sherman and go hunt German supertanks who waited in ambush.

All this thousands of miles away from their homes.

Gyrene

[Marnix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KMHPaladin:

...you even attack him for trying to remember veterans. Show a little class, would you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing wrong with remembering veterans, on the contrary! But why just the ones from the U.S.? I never cared for nationalism much, so that rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe I'm reading a little too much into this, though...

[Mattias]

If you insist on using a Sig that basically says “lets keep the animosity alive” you can expect to receive reactions in all but the most “narrow” circles.

If you indeed have this profound respect for the American airborne troops, use a Sig that does them credit instead of portraying them as being “just as savage”.

Over all, and this is very much my opinion, anyone who glorifies war in any way, shape or form is showing a fundamental lack of respect for those who have paid the ultimate price in the form of death or loss of loved ones. As long as it is seen as beautiful and fitting to die for ones country or cause, war will continue and the memories of those who know the full cost of this folly will be pressed down even further into the mud.

War can not and should not be considered anything more that a boundlessly painful tragedy.

M.

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redmow:

Last but not least, I hope you do not take me the wrong way...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still don't like it, but accept your explanation.

[Dunnee]

Chris. . .I think what you described the CM sharpshooter as doing is actually a sniper's job description. A "sharpshooter" should be attached to his unit, not bought seperately as support, a sniper would be bought seperately as he has special skills, whereas the "sharpshooter" is just a damn good shot.

[Conscript Bagger]

Damn, wrong thread

[ 04-25-2001: Message edited by: Offwhite ]

[Tiger]

What Mattias wrote.

Also:

There are no snipers in CM only Sharpshooters. Their ammo count does not represent single bullets. There would be no advantage to having snipers in place of sharpshooters in CM on the battlefield. One super-sniper holds off an entire Battalion? Who would want to bother playing that? Use sharpshooters correctly in CMBO and they do great. Last game my opponent knocked out two AT guns I was trying to move into postion to knock out his last tank. Even shocked a halftrack I had sent to pick up the guns. Result: I lost that battle. I also never saw the sharpshooter until looking around the end-game map.

Use what you have correctly before declaring it broken, useless, or not as good as something similiar.

-Tiger

[Dunnee]

who said I didn't use sharpshooters correctly? I merely was raising an issue of improvement, there's nothing wrong with the way I use them, and also, there are occasions of snipers holding up more than a battalion, and sure it's no fun, but it's real. . .

[Schugger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dunnee:

who said I didn't use sharpshooters correctly? I merely was raising an issue of improvement, there's nothing wrong with the way I use them, and also, there are occasions of snipers holding up more than a battalion, and sure it's no fun, but it's real. . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A single sniper held up more than a battalion? That is an interesting story, where have you found it?

[Dunnee]

saw it on the history channel show, suicide missions: snipers. One Gi told the account, the sniper was in a tree and was killing anything that moved, stopped a large column of Gi's, and I mean LARGE column, don't know the exact number.