Where do you find the patience?

[KingOPork]

I bought CM as soon as it came out and it had a surprisingly short life span for me. Why? Cuz i'm a twitch gamer. I was raised up on Quake and other competitive FPS'. WHen playing CM, i attempt strategy and the like, but end up frustrated with the time it takes and hitting "GO". I look at the topics and the strategy and knowledge you guys put into the game is admirable and short of amazing. How do you guys keep the patience, and how do you think of the strategies. It seems no matter how many topics i read on such interesting subjects, getting it to work successfully is impossible. I fail miserably in all attemps against the AI, hate to see a PBEM game. Just remember next time you guys play, i'm jealous. =\

-KOP

[chrisl]

Some of us grew up playing the predecessors of CM using 1/4" and 5/8" cardboard counters on hex-maps that covered many square feet of table in the basement. In some games or scenarios there could be thousands of pieces. The rule books could have a hundred pages (squad leader plus the three gamettes had 144 pp). It could take hours to do half a turn (one side moving), and weeks to finish a game. Finding opponents was major pain, and play by snail mail was a major pain, too. If you had pets (especially cats) you were doomed.

And all that was after walking to school uphill both directions and in subzero blowing snow.

By comparison, CM is pretty simple. It takes all the rules and puts them in the computer. It takes all the things where a squad has to decide what to do in response to hazards and puts them into the TacAI in a very nice way--once you know how it works it really does follow your orders pretty well, and behave predictably and realistically when the opponent messes up your plans.

Try smaller scenarios or quick battles-- 500 pts or less-- you can do a lot of tactical maneuvering in that, and a 1500 pt battle is really just a lot of 500 pt and smaller battles.

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"I HATE THIS GAME, YOU AND THIS SCENARIO" -jd

[Pud]

If you are a twitch player, play it over TCP/IP (internet or preferably, LAN). Its feel then is totally different over a LAN (beer helps - more of a social thing). I find PBEM too drawn out,games tends to loose interest if its turns take too long to come back. Also do as Chrisl suggests, keep it under 1000 points.

Pud

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by chrisl:

Some of us grew up playing the predecessors of CM using 1/4" and 5/8" cardboard counters on hex-maps that covered many square feet of table in the basement. In some games or scenarios there could be thousands of pieces. The rule books could have a hundred pages (squad leader plus the three gamettes had 144 pp). It could take hours to do half a turn (one side moving), and weeks to finish a game.

Actually, the most time consuming part was the rules lawyers squabbling about which rules were and were not specifically enacted before playing, and which version of the Question and Answers in various issues of the General were legit and which were not; the 144 pages of rulebook were scattered across 4 seperate books, each of which expanded on the ones previous, without any of the rules being "mandatory."

Squad Leader was a great idea in the pre-computer age - sophisticated and realistic, while being fun and immersive. But you really needed a computer to handle all the computations. In order to hit a vehicle with an AT Gun, there was a checklist of dozens of possible modifiers to the To Hit dice roll, with random events based on double sixes, double ones, the red die being lower than the white die, doubles being rolled, etc., etc.

I was just flipping through an old General today, and I just now realized there was a Mapmaker addon for their Under Fire game. Would have liked to have seen that; the Under Fire was pathetic even in its day, but the only thing that came close to a computer version of SL. CM seems all the more sweet to those of us who have gone back that far, eh?

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 03-19-2001).]

[Guest HENTZAU]

You might want to try the new Half-Life Mod "Day of Defense". Its a D-Day FPS, might be more to your liking. http://www.dayofdefeatmod.com It was pretty neat, but too fast for me. LOL

[Clubfoot]

CM... time consuming?

Let me dig out my World in Flames and 3rd Reich boxed sets...

Clubfoot.

[Arien]

hang in there KING

like it was said earlier, play small battles first. once you get the hang of what happens and how to use your units. you will be hooked. i too was a advanced squad leader player and kept searching the computer games that came out for one like CM. i thank the BTS crew everytime i start a game.. if you ask most of the people that play you will see that they too lost many games before getting more on the win side than the loss..

Arien

[Hurricane]

Ahh, Fire in the East and Scorched Earth. Each turn took about two hours per side, and the map filled an entire room. I played against my brother, and still it took about a year to finish. Only played it once, but that was one great game.

[-E]

Did someone mention Under Fire?

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by -E:

Did someone mention Under Fire?

Hey, what mods are you using for that? I gotta get me those uniform mods...

Regards

Jim R.

[Doug Williams]

I once, in days of yore, played an Avalon Hill board game called The Longest Day with a wargaming friend of mine. We started playing at about 8 AM, and finished playing at about 6 PM, only stopping for food and bathroom breaks. The outcome of the game came down to one die roll in the end.....

[KingOPork]

Ahh thanks for all the comments. I usually go for a full scale mission, and you're right, i should scale down so i can practice the small nuances first. I knew some of you were the old boardgame freaks. (freak in a good way, promise =) ) And thinking of how it was in the old days, i guess this is a breeze. As for the DoD Half-Life mod, i play it every now and then, i get in the top 5% of the scoreboard, good fun. I do need to practice. It's just frustrating reading about how to use spotters for mortars, put him on a hill, and have nothing happen, then curse the game out. Try to be strategic with tanks only to be shot to hell. But i guess with time, and small battles the peices will come together. The funny part is that i read this Mboard everyday, even though i've played the game 5 times in the past 3 months. You guys make up THE best gaming community in history. Thanks for everything.

-KOP

[Ibenholt]

Hey Kpork

I had the same problem as you. As has been suggested, try some smaller battles.

I find that 400-800 makes for a battle where you can employ tactics and not lose the overview of the situation( I get confused easily ).

If you wanna try an TCP/IP battle drop me a line, perhaps we could have a little 600 ME.

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I hope i haven't brained my damage!

-Homer Simpson

[Mr Oz]

Originally posted by Clubfoot:

CM... time consuming?

Let me dig out my World in Flames and 3rd Reich boxed sets...

Clubfoot.

HighWay to the Reich, and Wacht Am Rhein by SSI and Streets of Stalingrad by Phoenix were big time consumers. Just setting up could take hours!. Ahhhhh! The Good Ole Days!

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Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice Doggy", until you can get a good sight picture.

[Wolfcub]

iv played that day of defeat mod for haflife [though i like playing some fps over the nnet im not really a big fan of them]and i really like it ,it does a good jub of creating what it was like fighting in ww2 with the street combat ,the weapons are models acuratly too,though im not exactly very good at it .

[Navare]

Originally posted by Doug Williams:

I once, in days of yore, played an Avalon Hill board game called The Longest Day with a wargaming friend of mine. We started playing at about 8 AM, and finished playing at about 6 PM, only stopping for food and bathroom breaks. The outcome of the game came down to one die roll in the end.....

I played the largest scenario once (and only once) with a friend. It took about five hours to do one complete move (over 5,000 pieces on the board) and about 14 months to finish the game.

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Navare

"I am determined to prove a villian..."

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by chrisl:

Some of us grew up playing the predecessors of CM using 1/4" and 5/8" cardboard counters on hex-maps that covered many square feet of table in the basement. In some games or scenarios there could be thousands of pieces. The rule books could have a hundred pages (squad leader plus the three gamettes had 144 pp). It could take hours to do half a turn (one side moving), and weeks to finish a game. Finding opponents was major pain, and play by snail mail was a major pain, too. If you had pets (especially cats) you were doomed.

And all that was after walking to school uphill both directions and in subzero blowing snow.

By comparison, CM is pretty simple. It takes all the rules and puts them in the computer. It takes all the things where a squad has to decide what to do in response to hazards and puts them into the TacAI in a very nice way--once you know how it works it really does follow your orders pretty well, and behave predictably and realistically when the opponent messes up your plans.

Try smaller scenarios or quick battles-- 500 pts or less-- you can do a lot of tactical maneuvering in that, and a 1500 pt battle is really just a lot of 500 pt and smaller battles.

Hi

We Prayed for Snow Days so we could play all day and all Night!

A snow day on Friday meant 3 full days arguing over rules and rolling dice on the HUGE game laid out on the ping pong table in the basement.

And this is the TRUEST thing anyone ever posted on this board!........

"If you had pets (especially cats) you were doomed."

GREAT post Chrisl !

YES CM has a come a long way and it IS the game we all dreamed about so, there would be NO arguing over rules (although we still try to do that here ) and no rolling the dice and no disasters from unwanted cat paws!

Any body you who ever played Squad Leader has dreamed about a game like this for YEARS!

If you want the "twitch" feel, set the TCP/IP timer for 1 minute for every 500 points worth of troops you are commanding. For a 1000 point game try 2 minute turns (prefrebably on a FAST computer via a DSL or Cable modem connection) and you WILL feel the "twitch" and a adrenaline RUSH you seek.

Good luck

-tom w

[lcm1947]

I guess you either like these types of games or you don't. It's like chess. It is very time consuming ploying your moves but that's the fun. The thinking and planning. It also helps if you are just so interested in war and the vehicles, uniforms, weapons, etc. To me I could spend hours just looking at military vehicles and stuff. But fast it's not. Keep trying and like some have already suggested try small games where it doesn't take that long, but you first just have to like - what war, I guess.

[Doug Williams]

Navare,

Re: Longest Day. Yes, I believe we played one of the small scenarios, and it still took an entire day of intensive playing to finish it. Those days are gone for me. Nowadays, I prefer computer wargames. No more cardboard. No more arguments over rules. Always an opponent (the AI) who is available, etc...

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

I would second the posts of those people who suggested that you start off with small QBs. I would aim for a size that gives you a company of men plus two or three tanks. Maybe buy US units, as they should be more familiar to you, and there are fewer choices that you have to make wrt which units to buy. As a way of keeping stuff simple, remember that a company has three platoons, which should be your basic movement unit. For simplicity, just parcel out your support weapons (they come when you buy a company) evenly among the platoons (i.e., each platoon gets a 60mm mortar, one machine gun, and one bazooka).

You now have three infantry maneuver units. Until you get more experience, just keep the units in the platoon together and in command radius. So, really, you only have 3 infantry things to worry about, plus maybe a couple of tanks.

Of course, there are separate units in the platoons,and you need to choose some way of arranging them. But as a simple default way of arranging the units in your platoon, you might try something like this:

B S S S

M L MG

B=Bazooka, S=Squads, M=Mortar, and MG=machine gun (either MMG or .50 cal).

The three squads in the front will give you good supporting firepower against enemy units. The leader in the middle is centrally located so all units in the platoon can stay in command range. The MG and Mortar are in the back so they don't stumble into an ambush. Also, they move more slowly than the other units, so they will tend to lag anyway. But it's good that they don't lag too much, so that they can be used to support the other units. The bazooka is on the wing for flank support against tanks.

Now, if you encounter enemy units, you'll want to bring up your support weapons; in that case, your formation might look something like this:

S M S MG S

B L

You can also put the Leader in the front line and have the mortar a little back, so that the leader can spot for the mortar.

Note that when you move your units, your formation will probably look something like this:

S S S

L

B

M

MG

This is because the units have different movement speeds. This is okay, but you probably don't want the support weapons to fall *too* far behind, lest they not be there when you need them.

When you move your platoons, each platoon should be close enough to the other platoons that it can support it if it gets attacked, but not so close that it would get hit by the same artillery that might hit the first platoon. As a very rough rule of thumb, keep the distance between the first and second platoons about the width of the front line covered by one platoon.

So they might look like this:

b s s s s s s b

L L

M MG M MG

With the third platoon, you can either put it in line with the other two (about the same distance apart), or use it as a reserve platoon (keep it say, three turns behind the first two platoons, and commit it to battle when the first two platoons are beaten up and running low on ammo).

Experienced players might do a lot of tactical things differently than this. But this isn't so much a tactics discussion as a way of reducing the complications in the game to a manageable level until you gain more experience. By having just three infantry formations, you can think more about how your plan for attack and not have to worry about managing the elements within your platoon until you're more comfortable doing that.

WRT armor, I would just give you a couple of pointers: (1) keep them close to one another, so that they can all shoot at an enemy tank; (2) keep them unbuttoned, so they react more quickly to enemy tanks; and (3) start them off away from possible enemy lines of sight (like behind some woods or on the backside of a hill) until your infantry has spotted enemy armor. Then move your armor up to attack the spotted armor.

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

A few additonal comments on getting play fun out of CMBO if you're not a cardgamer:

The most important factor me has been that I did not fight to win in the end, but that I tried hard not to loose my units. Try the tutorial, but do not accept a loss of even one tank. Do your best to come out of the battle with both tanks. That did the trick for me to put a meaning into every single turn, not only the battle as a whole.

I second the recommendation for small batlles, but not neccessarily in points, but number of units. Get at most so many units that you will bother visiting every single one each turn. For impatient people, that is 15-25.

If you like to blow up things, get things like the Hummel. Not historical, but can be fun right from start and can be expanded into a useful learning process if you use your infantry as a bodyguard for the SP gun, which blows up everything in sight. If you're playing edited scenarios, max out the ammo supply.

Mixed things that brought me early fun:

- Move infantry with vehicles, without loosing them together with the vehicle

- Try to put out super-heavy tanks with a platoon of Shermans/Cromwells/Pz.IV

- Be sure to get some beautiful tank skins

- Use sight option 1 quite often, especially when something blows up

[slate43]

Me and a buddy played AH's Longest Day once. It turned out to be the "Longest Day" alright. Had a blast tho.

[Tontoman]

It's definately worth sticking with it.

I found that saving often and then going back and replaying a certain part again and again using different tactics helped me. If you try different ideas under nearly the same conditions, it's easier to tell what works and what doesn't work. VERY usefull for tinkering with ambushes

T.

[Navare]

Originally posted by Doug Williams:

Navare,

Re: Longest Day. Yes, I believe we played one of the small scenarios, and it still took an entire day of intensive playing to finish it. Those days are gone for me. Nowadays, I prefer computer wargames. No more cardboard. No more arguments over rules. Always an opponent (the AI) who is available, etc...

I know the feeling. No more carefree summer vacations to waste unfortunately. I think my wife would kill me if I took over our office for a full year.

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Navare

"I am determined to prove a villian..."

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Hurricane:

Ahh, Fire in the East and Scorched Earth. Each turn took about two hours per side, and the map filled an entire room. I played against my brother, and still it took about a year to finish. Only played it once, but that was one great game.

Jeez, you were fast! I never played FITE or SE, but I got Fall of France which is almost as big. It took me two days just to set up (I was playing solitaire) and a day to move each side.

Compared to that, even a large CM scenario is a snap.

Michael