Enemies don't notice each other four meters away? AI bug?

[maxm2]

Randomly-generated scenario against a human opponent: night, cloudy (so maximum los of about 60 meters). My German snipers, which I use (realistically or not) as scouts have been:

1. walking (move command) right by Allied troops in tall pines or woods--within four meters sometimes;

2. refusing to fire on Allied troops as close as four or five meters away, even when the allied units are only spotter or anti-tank teams, and after I have targeted my snipers on the enemy units.

This has happened repeatedly in this game. I can see the troops occasionally not noticing each other in woods areas (especially if they're all sneaking or crawling), or my sniper being afraid to fire on a squad, but the distances seem to me to be too close, and the refusal to fire at "small" targets too scardy-cat by snipers who fire on tanks the next minute. I just have never seen this kind of AI behavior so consistently and (I think) unrealistically before.

--Max

[Guest wwb_99]

Snipers, since version 1.1, have not fired on targets closer than 100m, mainly because it is suicide. When they get spotted, they are generally dead.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Stoffel]

I can remember an enemy patrol passed my patrol on a recon mission.

It was night no clouds or fog and we were hiding on the side of the road. they were coming straight towards us and passed us so close I could have touched the shoe from one of them.

They never saw us.

So not so strange behaviour from the game I guess.

Actually its very realistic.

[Jeff Heidman]

Has anyone head the story about the German and American patrolr running into each other on the first night in Normandy?

Neither group expected the enemy to be about (the Germans didn't know about the drop, the Americans thought they were in a controlled drop zone). Both sides assumed the approaching squad was friendly, until they actually got within a few feet of one another.

They both marched on by without engaging, presumably because everyone realized that if they did engage, they were ALL going to be dead, so they just marched on past one another.

One of those stories that you do not is true, but should be even if it is not.

Jeff Heidman

[Michael Dorosh]

Scouts don't initiate contact!

The use of snipers as scouts seems realistic - in Canadian infantry battalions, there was an entity called a Scout and Sniper Platoon. They were trained to do both - sharpshooting and scouting.

Why would you want a scout to initiate contact? His job is to take what he learns back to his unit,not advertise his presence or win firefights.

A competent defender would not give away a position by shooting at a scout, either, when he can simply wait and take out the main body of troops after the scout passes by. Opening fire on him simply reveals your positions all the more. (So my viewpoint is - I am sure there are real scouts out there who can correct me if I am in error).

A sharpshooter/scout is a trained specialist, to my way of thinking, and not someone to be thrown away in a firefight, nor likely to react well to orders that he do so.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Has anyone head the story about the German and American patrolr running into each other on the first night in Normandy?

There was as similar occurance in The Longest Day (the movie). Only there was a chest high wall in between the two units.

[Dar]

In one Quick Battle I had a sharpshooter lying low in the 2nd floor of a building as a full-strength enemy squad occupied the ground floor. After several turns, they moved on, never having spotted my sniper.

I was rather impressed that he wasn't spotted. And I think it's a good feature, not a bug. It certainly seemed like realistic behavior to me.

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Dar

[Michael Dorosh]

Consider also the dangers inherent in initiating contact with a bolt action rifle. Some US snipers did use the Garand, but I believe the majority of WW II era snipers carried bolt actions.

Also, I don't believe that WW II era scopes could be used in conjunction with the iron or battle sights - meaning that if you had a scope, it was your only method of sighting, leaving you unable to aim the thing in a close-in fight.

Definitely not a good idea to shart shooting, then.

Snipers were also usually armed with pistols, and their number two may have had a machine pistol in addition to the spotting scope and binoculars, but again, they would be pretty uninterested in starting anything.

I am pretty sure the scene in the movie The Longest Day was the same scene Jeff is talking about - probably remembered from reading the book by Cornelius Ryan on which the movie was based. Yes?

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Stoffel:

I can remember an enemy patrol passed my patrol on a recon mission.

It was night no clouds or fog and we were hiding on the side of the road. they were coming straight towards us and passed us so close I could have touched the shoe from one of them.

They never saw us.

Stoffel, would you mind indulging my curiosity and informing us of when and where that was?

Michael

[Stoffel]

It was on a NATOexercise in 1988 near the German place of Paderborn.

Fortunate it wasn't in a real war.

But a very exciting experience.

We were on a reconpatrol for our batalion when we encountered the other patrol,it was a German patrol

Or did you thinkit was in combat?

Sorry for you than.

Like I said I am glad I haven't seen a real war.

I might have acted different than,I don't know.

[Black Five]

I had a similiar situation between a FIAT team and a sniper. Neither would engage each other from a distance of 4m. Given that there was not anyone else for miles the sniper should have broke out his pistol and dropped the approaching FIAT team.

[Brian Rock]

But think of it from the sniper's point of view. How would he know there was nobody else for miles?

Bear in mind the player has far more information than any of his troops would have had in real life in these situations.

[Clubfoot]

I'm not sure you could have taken that FIAT team, Black Five, those damned little foreign cars are pretty tough.

jk, of course.

Clubfoot.

[nedlam]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Has anyone head the story about the German and American patrolr running into each other on the first night in Normandy?

I believe it. People do strange things in battle. Heck, in the Civil War troops would talk to each other aross "no-man's land" that in some places was only a 50 or so meters. They would activlytrade with each other too.

In WWI a German and I believe a French unit (I think French) played a soccer game during brief cease fire (Germans won the game )

Again in WWI there was a story of a German and Allied men going into no-mans land, having a Christmas dinner and exchanging gifts only to fight and kill each other the next day.

Man's inhumanity to man is most obvious during times of war but when it comes down to it the guy across the lines from you is still just another guy and neither of you want to die.

[Guest Space Thing]

Originally posted by nedlam:

In WWI a German and I believe a French unit (I think French) played a soccer game during brief cease fire (Germans won the game )

Again in WWI there was a story of a German and Allied men going into no-mans land, having a Christmas dinner and exchanging gifts only to fight and kill each other the next day.

Man's inhumanity to man is most obvious during times of war but when it comes down to it the guy across the lines from you is still just another guy and neither of you want to die.

True story. Christmas Eve, 1914. The soccer game was won by the Germans 3-2. Gifts were exchanged (mostly sweets and cigars) and carols were sung.

"In some places, the spontaneous truce continued the next day, neither side willing to fire the first shot. Finally, the war resumed when fresh troops arrived, and the high command of both armies ordered that further "informal understandings" with the enemy would be punishable as treason."

This is from "Tragedy and Hope, a History of the World in our Time" by Carroll Quigley, p. 324.

To me this story proves that war is NOT a part of our basic nature. War only occurs when men (& now women) are tricked into it. Like the one that is about to happen in the middle east/ persian gulf.

[MarkEzra]

Sniper will not fire under 100 meters? I'm not sure of that. In the scen Max describes a one man plt survivor was shoot dead at well under 20 meters by (I assume from Max's post) a sniper. This was done why My 2 man FO and 5 man 60mm Mortar sqd were next to the sniper.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Space Thing:

True story. Christmas Eve, 1914. The soccer game was won by the Germans 3-2. Gifts were exchanged (mostly sweets and cigars) and carols were sung.

"In some places, the spontaneous truce continued the next day, neither side willing to fire the first shot. Finally, the war resumed when fresh troops arrived, and the high command of both armies ordered that further "informal understandings" with the enemy would be punishable as treason."

This is from "Tragedy and Hope, a History of the World in our Time" by Carroll Quigley, p. 324.

There were several soccer games, actually, see the article in Military History Quarterly, Volume V Number 2.

"Enemy, death and a Christmas tree - they cannot exist so close together." So wrote Captain Rudolf Binding, a German Hussar officer on 20 December 1914. Allied troops all along the lines of trenches in France and Flanders found themselves surprised by the desire of German soldiers to celebrate Christmas, especially in the wake of progaganda painting the Germans as "Huns" and beasts. Tannenbaum, Christmas trees, were erected even at the risk of one's life, and when knocked down by shellfire, put up once again. Lighted candles and trees, right up on the parapets, made the German trenches look like "the Thames on Henley Regatta night."

But it was the singing on Christmas eve that convinced the British that the Germans were sincerely celebratorial. Here and there, the British began to sing their own songs, and in places applauded the German singers, some even stood on the parapets and cheered their opposite numbers. A few troops even made it to the enemy trenches, but these contacts were brief, and by Christmas morning, 1914, everyone had returned to their own lines.

But the tentative contacts of the night before were strengthened when the sun came up again on the 25th. A battalion of Royal Welch Fusiliers put up a MERRY CHRISTMAS sign over the parapet, and when no one fired on it, two men went out into No Man's Land. The Germans sent two men, and soon the trenches emptied. It was a similar scene in other areas. The lull was used not just to meet the enemy, but to work on wire and entrenchments. One officer swore that the Germans were so friendly he could have asked to borrow tools to work on their wire. In some places, Germans and British alike did exchange tools to work on their wire. Tommy and Landser chased hares between the lines, and football games were arranged for Boxing Day. Superiors getting wind of what was happening cancelled the planned matches, but it seems several games were indeed played on Christmas Day itself. The return to hostilities came after regrettful remarks by both sides. Many men remained reluctant to shoot at their opposite numbers, but before long, the war continued as before. The truces were not repeated in 1915.

I don't believe "Christmas Dinners" are mentioned in any of the histories I've read, but would be interested of hearing of a source that cites such an event.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Space Thing:

True story. Christmas Eve, 1914. The soccer game was won by the Germans 3-2.

I bet the lucky sods won on penalties too .

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Here is a CM sniper story. I was playing the Aachen scenario as the Germans, the one that comes with the disk. I had a crack sniper (or vet - but I think he was crack) in one of the forward buildings, well ahead of my main force. He was on the upper floor, and he sighted out the right-hand side of the building (if forward means toward the Americans). He spotted a flamethrower team and dropped one of its members, then I decided it was time to "skulk".

So he pulled back out of LOS, ready to go back to a different window the following turn and try again. But while he was back in the middle of the upper story, a full American squad entered the ground floor of the house. I put him on "hide" and waited. The American squad moved to the front side of the house and shot at more distant targets. I continued waiting.

About 2 minutes after the squad entered downstairs, it passed on, farther ahead. I had the sniper "sneak" toward the side of the building nearest the American lines, staying on the second story. I hoped to get a shot at some rear element and then skedaddle. But by the time I made it to the window, 2 bazooka teams were downstairs. I froze into "hide" again at first.

I realized I had to get him out of there, and for other reasons I had a squad able to get to a building diagonally one-by-one block away. As it moved toward that position, I gave the sniper orders to run downstairs and across the street to a different house, run to the far side of it, rotate to the reverse direction, and hide again.

He ran right past the bazooka teams. They did not fire at him, perhaps because he was infantry, perhaps because they did not want to fire zooks inside a building, perhaps because they did not have time, perhaps because they panicked or something. Nobody else had a shot, and the sniper made it safely across the road. But one of the two zook teams went nuts and ran into the road, and my covering squad shot them.

Give the sniper an "assist" on that zook team - LOL.

[maxm2]

All comments on all topics in this thread (I started) have been helpful, interesting (loved the WWI stories) or both.

Mark Ezra is correct: my sniper shot down his one-man squad from well under 100 meters. I don't think there was any other unit in los (remember, this is a night game) which could have whacked his squad. Of course, the Ami may have commited suicide when he saw my highly trained sniper.

Besides the one-man squad incident, another of my snipers foolishly fired at a Hellcat from about 30 meters, resulting in one dead sniper.

HOWEVER, I did a series of tests with German snipers and Allied small troop units (snipers, MGs, zooks) and found that none of the snipers ever fired on any Allied unit, no matter how close they were, or what orders I gave the sniper. Hey CM, couldn't you just tell us what the AI instructions are?

I don't agree with the idea that a sniper with a rifle (even bolt action) and a pistol would never fire on any other close-by unit in any circumstances. If a sniper enters a house and comes upon a zook team and the team sees him and pistols or knives are pulled out, what's the sniper going to do? The enemy will probably try to use their firearms, so the stealth element is gone unless the sniper can cut their throats before they can fire. It seems far more logical to assume that a sniper with nowhere to go would use any weapon available to survive (I sure would), but the AI seems to prevent that, even in the "sudden encounter" curcumstances described, in 99%+ (?) of the cases. As for sniping at large units from, say, 50 meters--that sounds suicidal and I assume snipers never did that.

As a side note: my father was scheduled to go to army sniper's training in '44, but they found he knew some German so he was sent to translaters' training instead, and ended up using his German abilities as a GI in the Heurtgen Forest area, in the end stages of the Bulge. To this day he can ask you auf Deutsch where the anti-tank emplacements are! Even though he was practically killed in some other ways, I figure I owe being here to play CM to his language ability. Snipers didn't have a high rate of survival.

--Max

[nedlam]

I had a bazooka team hidden in a house and an infantry unit crawled right past it!! damn near crawled over him. I kinda thought it was cool, after all, the houses where not just a box with a roof over them. They had rooms, etc. Maybe my bazooka team was hiding in the closet?

Nedlam