CM's lack of true LOS / WYSIWYG

[M Hofbauer]

[edited due to geo****ties]

for the original post please go HERE

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Guest ciks]

Can't see the pictures!

Wrong links, i guess.

[nick]

Maybe there was a window on each side of the house?

[aka_tom_w]

try this thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/013403.html

"Vanir

Member posted 12-06-2000 11:46 PM

I'm quoting from page 45 of the manual:

"There is even a very small chance that a round can make it into and THROUGH a building, exploding on the other side."

This through the house shot happens when the shooter or target is too close to the house.

see the screen shots here to locate your shooter behind a house so you can spot and shoot through it. This works well if you pull up to a house, shoot through it and then, reverse away, if you back away from the house far enough the los "should" not follow your tank and that tank should disappear out of LOS.

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/013403.html

In the example Hofbauer posted the Greyhound "might" not have been in LOS if it has been a few meters further away from the house on the back side there.

This should only happen where light buildings are concerned. All other buildings block LOS.

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 03-12-2001).]

[M Hofbauer]

sorry, the links are ok (if you keep trying top reload you might get lucky, sometimes it works), it's just that geocities is f***ed up once again (I tried a workaround with stormpages but they wouldn't accept deep links).

aka_tom, I know, but ... whenever the pics work, please take a look at pic 4, I think the Greyhound is quite a _bit_ behind the house.

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 03-12-2001).]

[FriendlyFire]

Yeah, geocities doesn't seem to like showing pictures these days. Is it checking referrer fields? If I cut-and-paste the URLs, I can see the images.

As for the kill, I agree that it is unsatisfying when this happens, and that it only happens when a moving target leaves LOS just as the attacker fires. Then you get the "magic bullet" effect, which has been variously justified as "through the front door, out the window, nothing but net", or "it knocked a corner of the building down onto the target".

I believe the fundamental problem is that the game engine computes LOS and whether the target will be hit only once, at the instant of firing, not at the instant of impact. BTS have previously said that they considered the full WYSIWYG model, but that it would be much more computationally expensive, because the game engine would have to track the shell throughout its flight, seeing if it touched anything along the way (e.g. did the Sherman reverse into the path of that PSW 234's shell, or did the building fall down just before the shell reached it?).

Right now we've got a game that runs well on fairly basic hardware, and the right thing happens most of the time. To make the right thing happen all of the time would require a lot more CPU power. Maybe for CM2, if they throw in a 1GHz minimum spec

A couple of related notes. First, you also see this effect when a tank switches to a second target while its shell to a first one is still in flight. If you see this happen in a game movie, you know that the first target is about to be KO'd, because the game engine has already decided that, and the tank commander magically gets to share this knowledge. Second, and just to tease you about WYSIWYG, that Greyhound would be out of action anyway - because it's rammed into the back of the Sherman and lost its front third

In summary: it's a limitation of the game engine. It's not going away anytime soon. Just choose your favorite in-game justification and wait for CPUs to get faster. Something about this should probably go into the FAQ.

[M Hofbauer]

FriendlyFire,

yes that seems to be my observation as well. aka_tom, I had this happen to a Halftrack moving behind a heavy building (city house block) earlier, but I don't think I made a screenshot back then...the bullet went through the building and knocked out the halftrack after it was out of LOS. I really think it's a movement thing.

I took a look at the thread you gave and it is amazing too.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

FriendlyFire,

yes that seems to be my observation as well. aka_tom, I had this happen to a Halftrack moving behind a heavy building (city house block) earlier, but I don't think I made a screenshot back then...the bullet went through the building and knocked out the halftrack after it was out of LOS. I really think it's a movement thing.

I took a look at the thread you gave and it is amazing too.

Friendly fire is correct, if the shot is calculated at a time when the target is in LOS and then the target moves out of LOS the result of the hit is predetermined in the "crunch", the shot does not fire at where the target "was" the shot follows the target behind buildings and out of LOS if the shot was determined to be a hit in the "crunch", at the time when there was active LOS

NOW if the shot was determined to be a miss it will impact the ground or whatever where the target used to be.

I think that this situation is "acceptable" and that Friendly Fire is correct, we can either wait ALOT longer for a more accurate crunch with the ballistics and LOS model or we can all get VERY fast top of the line computers.

I would of course prefer that we all get faster computers, but I would also wait longer for the crunch if it could be more accurate with regard to LOS.

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 03-12-2001).]

[russellmz]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

sorry, the links are ok (if you keep trying top reload you might get lucky, sometimes it works), it's just that geocities is f***ed up once again (I tried a workaround with stormpages but they wouldn't accept deep links).

aka_tom, I know, but ... whenever the pics work, please take a look at pic 4, I think the Greyhound is quite a _bit_ behind the house.

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 03-12-2001).]

yeah geocities isn't reliable for posting pics anymore. i tried http://www.photopoint.com and it's pretty decent, although navigation is a bit difficult at first.

------------------

russellmz,

Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ.

"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[Subvet]

This happens whether you are moving or not. Check out http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/014815.html to see earlier discussions about this problem. Look at the last page; I've put a few pictures and explained it there. BTS claimed it didn't happen, but it obviously does. I haven't seen any response from them since posting these pictures over a month ago. Oh well, it's just one of those bugs we have to live with I guess.

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Craiger

All your victory flag are belong to me

[This message has been edited by Subvet (edited 03-12-2001).]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Subvet:

This happens whether you are moving or not. Check out http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/014815.html to see earlier discussions about this problem. Look at the last page; I've put a few pictures and explained it there. BTS claimed it didn't happen, but it obviously does. I haven't seen any response from them since posting these pictures over a month ago. Oh well, it's just one of those bugs we have to live with I guess.

This Quote is taken from the above thread:

"Big Time Software

Moderator posted 01-12-2001 12:57 AM               

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thomm wrote:

quote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I think it would be a fairly good approximation not to let anything fire through buildings. Yes, I know that there are historical examples of tanks firing through buildings, but still, the CM world would be easier to understand if some basic rules are kept simple, like e.g. "Nothing can shoot through houses".

------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a basic rule in CM -> "Nothing can shoot through houses". Put another way, in no way shape or form may any unit, regardless of what it is, shoot through a house. Never. Not even in the strangest circumstances. LOS will not be calculated through a house. You are pointing your finger at a cause of this problem which does not exist.

The problem is that a building can be hit accidentally if the target's line of fire is too close to the edge of a buliding. CM is specifically coded to work this way because shells do not fly exactly as aimed, or shots are not aimed as exactly as the gunner thinks, so there are times where being off the mark in such situations makes the round detonate on the building instead off flying past it.

Sometimes you can see a LOS line draw through a building (or hill, thick woods, or any terrain feature). This is part of your unit's "tracking" the target. It doesn't mean that it can fire at it right then and there. This is a necessary feature so that if an enemy unit goes out of LOS for just a second or two the friendly unit won't stop targeting it. But again, it can not shoot if it doesn't have a line of fire, which is different than the line of sight.

The cause of this problem is that the TacAI is not "smart" enough to understand that the shot is too close to be safe at that distance. Hopefully this will be improved upon in CM2.

The question if the HE shell would even be armed at that range is a good one. I forwarded this off to Charles a couple of days ago when someone emailed me about it. However, Charles is doubtfull that HE fuzes were that sophisticated back in WWII as they are now. If anybody has documentation on standard "impact" HE fuzes (i.e. not proximity fuzes or the like) please post it to this BBS for further discussion.

And yes, so far as I know blasts from direct fire HE are elliptical and not circular. But a 105 HE round, striking masonry at a close range, is probably enough to knock something as thinly armored and open topped as a Wespe.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-12-2001).] "

And to this I reply with this picture:

       

And this quote:

"Vanir

Member posted 12-06-2000 11:46 PM

I'm quoting from page 45 of the manual:

"There is even a very small chance that a round can make it into and THROUGH a building, exploding on the other side."

So where does the truth lie on this issue?

I routinely attempt to figure out where all the light buildings are and use this as an advantage knowing that a tank behind one of these light buildings may shoot through it so I hunt up to the edge of the house hoping that I will acquire LOS through it to my intended target that can't see me yet so I can get the first shot off.

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Just a side note. There is nothing wrong with geocities; you are simply trying to abuse a free service. Geocities lets you post your pictures (ie use their server space) for free in exchange for displaying advertising on your webpages. They won't let you link to just the picture because that would defeat the reason they are in business.

M. Hofbauer your pictures sound interesting; if you post them on a page and post the link to the page, we will be able to see them (and also geocities' advertising, which will make them happy.)

[M Hofbauer]

Michael Dorosh, as far as geo****ties is concerned... I could tell you a long story of someone who was there from very early on, when they were just starting many years ago...

I still remember well their original user guidelines, 1995 or 1996 I think it was, where they promised no ads on my pages, all I had to do was provide a backlink www.geocities.com on my index page...then this was extended to all pages...then they introduced an optional ad popup...then they made it mandatory and included it into everybody's html source...it was evil java schnick that made half the browsers choke and break down trying to load the pages...etc etc pp....the final ripoff in the merger with yahoo when eventually your membername was not valid anymore because it was already in possession of some yahoo idiot...plus you couldn't move your account anymore as a result of the merger, you couldn't change your account, only delete it completely and start a new one...my email basket is filled with "conversatuion" I had with their kryptofascistoid "community leaders" with their sheriff attitude and their inept technical staff....

of course you can say I can always cease to be there and go somewhere else...but my pages created there have been logged by everyone at the current URL, not to mention that with the gazillions of files that have accumulated there it would be quite an effort...they know that once you have established yourself somewhere you are less likely to go away again...that's why starting comapnies are giving you so many freebies etc, and once they got a hold on you, they start imposing new conditions...

nowhere do their guidelines say that deep-linking of JPG-images is not allowed.

plus they made over 200 000 adviews on the Panzerfaust page alone, how is that for letting me show you some deep-linked files once in a year on such an occasion as thisone???

you are defedning an unworthy cause, Mike, geo****ties really isn't worth it...

and yes, my next project will be hosted somewhere else, probably stormpages. They do not allow deeplinking of files either, but at least they are straightforward about it.

[Jeff Duquette]

I've also been experiencing problems with Geocities above and beyond simply posting pictures. I now typically generate an html page with the pictures I want to show and than simply provide a link to the picture page. So the Geocities add logo is popping up - Geocities gets their adds in…I get my pictures posted…everyone should in theory be happy. But I am still experiencing a severe amount of lag in my Geocities pages coming up…or the pages are simply not loading at all…or they are loading and the pictures aren't loading up. It's been this way for two weeks or so. Rather aggravating.

Anyway I digress from the topic. Do carry on.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Duquette (edited 03-12-2001).]

[M Hofbauer]

Ok, for Mike and anybody else interested, I simply copied the post into an html format complete with pictures

PLEASE GO HERE: (it works, I promise)

http://www.stormpages.com/ranks/cmlos.html

[Subvet]

There is a basic rule in CM -> "Nothing can shoot through houses". Put another way, in no way shape or form may any unit, regardless of what it is, shoot through a house. Never. Not even in the strangest circumstances. LOS will not be calculated through a house. You are pointing your finger at a cause of this problem which does not exist.

Uh, yeah.... That is the part that gets me. They have totally denied that this happens despite proof that shows otherwise. They haven't even acknowledged this bug exist that I have seen, so I doubt we will see a fix. I haven't given up all hope, but my odds of hitting the lotto are probably better.

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Craiger

All your victory flag are belong to me

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Not trying to defend Geocities necessarily, but you do get what you pay for. I was with freehosters for a while, but their server was unreliable and they broke their promise not to put ads on the sites too. If it looks too good to be true, that's because it probably is.

www.freeservers.com has hosted my stuff for a few years not - and despite the odd really aggravating server glitches where you can't upload for days at a time, it's been worth it. Lately, they have been more reliable than the webspace I get with my 40 dollar a month internet and email service.

Interesting pics, too, thanks for putting them on a page for us.

one other tip - move your entire site from geocities, but keep a redirection page at the URL that everyone has bookmarked. What could geocities do about that?

[Panzer Leader]

Okay so let me get this straight: The PSW spotted the Greyhound while it was driving between two buildings, locked on target, and continued to keep an LOS on the greyhound when it went behind the building due to CM's AI which is described as "keeping an LOS on target for a few seconds after leaving LOS to prevent switching targets and to portray tracking". So, the PSW had it and by the time it got a shot off, the greyhound had already gone behind the building but the AI was "tracking" it still. Does that sum it up?

[Freak]

There is a basic rule in CM -> "Nothing can shoot through houses". Put another way, in no way shape or form may any unit, regardless of what it is, shoot through house. Never. Not even in the strangest circumstances. LOS will not be calculated through a house. You are pointing your finger at a cause of this problem which does not exist.

For the record and with no disrespect to BTS, I also have had this happen though it was in an unlikely situation. I had a hetzer and a sherman on opposite sides of a church very close to the church...maybe 5 meters or so but blocked by LOS. The sherman opened fire on the hetzer through the church. Twas amazing to see. I sent in the screenshot since I was playing the AI, and was told that it would be sent to the right person to evaluate it or somethin. But I stand firm in my belief that this statement is false.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

one other tip - move your entire site from geocities, but keep a redirection page at the URL that everyone has bookmarked. What could geocities do about that?

that is one thing they explicitly do NOT allow - redirecting traffic in the way you suggest.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

So, the PSW had it and by the time it got a shot off, the greyhound had already gone behind the building but the AI was "tracking" it still. Does that sum it up?

yes, sorta kinda, except I might emphasize it not only kept tracking it but made short work of the M-8 Greyhound and sent it to the eternal Greyhound Graceland courtesy of a 7.5cm KwK...

[Steve McClaire]

It seems to me there are two possible causes for this:

1) The physics model in the game is accurately tracking the path the shell would have to take to hit the target, and is allowing it to pass through solid obstacles when it technically shouldn't, because the shot has been pre-determined to be a hit.

2) The true path of the shell is being 'approximated' by the graphics engine in the game (perhaps slowing down its flight so it's more visible?), and the result is that the shell is shown going through the building when in 'reality' it struck the target before it went out of LOS.

If it is the first case, I believe it should definitely be changed in future versions, or at least made an option (projectile collision detection on/off) for the player. I personally would be willing to wait another minute for the movie 'crunch' to finish to get perfect shell flight path effects.

If it's the second case, then it's a much less vital issue, IMO. Sure, it could be 'prettier', but I could live with it never being changed.

My two cents.

p.s. Hey Hofbauer, it's The Blood!

[JoePrivate]

Yes, your explanation at the end is right on the money. BTS has stated before that the turn's resolution is calculated beforehand, so before the movie is even played a hit or miss has already been determined. The path of the shell and any obstacle it encounters is not calculated on the fly, something BTS has said would require a lot of processing power etc. That sort of resolution would be ideal in the future but I don't know how practical it is.

[Subvet]

Originally posted by Steve McClaire:

It seems to me there are two possible causes for this:

1) The physics model in the game is accurately tracking the path the shell would have to take to hit the target, and is allowing it to pass through solid obstacles when it technically shouldn't, because the shot has been pre-determined to be a hit.

2) The true path of the shell is being 'approximated' by the graphics engine in the game (perhaps slowing down its flight so it's more visible?), and the result is that the shell is shown going through the building when in 'reality' it struck the target before it went out of LOS.

Or:

3. There is a bug that lets you fire through buildings. I'm pretty sure this is the case since it happens when both the target and firing vehicle are stationary throughout the turn. No other explanation for it that I can think of.

------------------

Craiger

All your victory flag are belong to me

[Jeff Duquette]

Kind of reminds me of those odd incidents in Close Combat where you could occasionally see and shot through walls. Had something to do with the window and door elements in a maps *.txt file as I recall.

I think modeling Real WorldTM exterior ballistics and Real WorldTM LOS could go along way toward addressing some of these game quirks. Trajectory can be modeled with a function, so I don't get why this is such a big processor deal. Tank sims ala Steel Beasts already model Real WorldTM. How are terrain parameters modeled in CM? Are there window and door elements ala CC? If so, how do you make LOS possible from say a infantry team on the inside of a building looking through a window, yet at the same time make it impossible for a tank located some 600 or 700 meters away being able to shot through two windows to a vehicle on the other side of a building? So sort of conditional IF - THEN function?