Col Deadmarsh Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 I'm sure this is possible but I'll ask anyway since it seems risky to try... Can you hide a tank in/behind some trees in the deploy where it has long lines of LOS across the map and yet can't be seen by the enemy because it's concealed? Does anyone set up their tanks like this in the middle of the open with only concealment to protect themselves and yet allowing you to shoot at the first armored target it sees without having to move the unit into view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 You can hide tanks at any time. In fact I do it when setting up ambushes. That way the wait till the enemy is in the ambush zone...or what ever you want to call it. It only works if the enemy doesn't see your AFV. Just think about this. How hard would it be for you to see a vehicle of those sizes at say 500m? [ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: Can you hide a tank in/behind some trees in the deploy where it has long lines of LOS across the map and yet can't be seen by the enemy because it's concealed? Does anyone set up their tanks like this in the middle of the open with only concealment to protect themselves and yet allowing you to shoot at the first armored target it sees without having to move the unit into view?<hr></blockquote> It is risky to try, and I would not recommend it. Vehicles are generally spotted quite easily even if they are hiding in scattered trees. I wish BTS would implement some sort of concealment bonus for vehicles that begin the game in trees and do not move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 All the HIDE command does in CM is make your tank quieter. It makes the engine run at low idle. I frequently do this on setup when I'm certain my tanks are out of sight and won't come in play right away, just to deny my opponent information about the armor's general whereabouts.. But if a tank is in LOS of ANYTHING, you can't really hide it the way you can hide infantry. And my impression is that the "hide" command does make a tank less likely to fire, even in its own defense, so it could be risky if your tank is "hiding" in plain sight and another tank takes a shot at it. The only way you can really hide a tank is to place it behind a building, a hill, or in scattered trees far enough back to break off LOS, then have other forces spot for it and inch it out when a target shows its flank or somefink. This seems to me a lot like real life, since, as has been said, tanks are pretty big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 It's doable though it depends on how 'many eyes' the enemy has to that position and how far back in the scattered trees your AFV is. ACs and HTs can remain hidden in scattered trees at ranges less than 500m, even small tanks can if they are set further back though for me '500m' is the cutoff. Larger tanks will probably be spotted at that range, but extended out another 200m or so and set back in the scattered trees and they will remain hidden as well. I would definitely avoid brush Hope that helps. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 I think attempting to get a shot at the enemy on especially the opening GO! is a cheating, gamey, way to play. I would immediately stop playing with anyone who tried this. Maneuverist Toad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CombinedArms: This seems to me a lot like real life, since, as has been said, tanks are pretty big.<hr></blockquote> I would argue that it is not realistic, at least in the case of tanks beginning the game in trees and not moving. If given time to prepare, tanks can be camoed very effectively, to the point where they are difficult to see even when looking right at them. It is my opinion that it is unrealistically difficult to use tanks on the defense in an ambush role. Perhaps one of the RL tankers around here could comment. [ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 One of the favorite tricks of both sides on the EF was to disguise vehicles as hay stacks. One of the first large engagements by a King Tiger equipped battalion was butchered when it advanced into hay stack camoflauged T-34/85s and IS-2s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Have read an account of an engagement between German heavy tanks and British Shermans coming down a hill, where the Germans were in a woodline and were camouflaged so well the Sherman crews couldn't see em. Due to low flash and smoke ammo, even when the Tigers fired the Sherman crews could not precisely locate the firers, and quite a few commanders got out of their tanks to try to spot the defenders. The only thing that gave away the enemy location was when the blast of the 88 moved the vegetation and other stuff tied around the gun barrel, or material was moved out of the way due to the blast. In North Africa the British used camo nets over their anti-tank guns, which seems to have been very good at concealment. Russian front stories also seem to have T34/85's and ISU-122's hiding in ambush waiting for Tiger II's, and the Germans don't see the hidden SPG till the firing starts. Concealment of tanks and SPG seems possible, given enough time and talent to do it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted October 25, 2001 Author Share Posted October 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B: It is risky to try, and I would not recommend it. Vehicles are generally spotted quite easily even if they are hiding in scattered trees. I wish BTS would implement some sort of concealment bonus for vehicles that begin the game in trees and do not move.<hr></blockquote> Yeah, I didn't think it would work too well. I agree that BTS should bonus these units when setting up in/behind trees with the engine on idle. Kinda like having a double stealth bonus as an infantry squad. You shouldn't be seen if you're well back and hiding. After hearing this info, I guess it's probably just safer to buy a gun to do the same job, but you don't always have one for whatever reason. There have been many times where I was without one and then saw a place on the map which allowed me to place my tank in the back of some trees with lots of LOS to where tanks might be passing through but I deemed it too risky because I was sure I'd be spotted before I fired the first shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 You can dig tanks in as the defender when the scenario allows it. Anybody ever tried this ? Don't know what it does for concealment of the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Well, if we wish to open the Aitken gamey dismounted AT guns during beginning of meeting engagement Pandora's box, then hiding your tanks in scattered trees at the beginning of a ME is gamey . Let's face it, if you want to talk real life, if you're advancing and expecting to meet the enemy, I doubt seriously a tanker would drive his tank into scattered trees and idle his engine. No, he would be ready to move and fire at a moments notice. Furthermore, how could he have gotten into the scattered trees without being spotted from any units in LOS. Gamey gamey gamey!!!! That is...if one believes Aitken . Me? I hide them in scattered trees and unmask them at an opportune time . Works fairly well so long as you don't get burnt by absolute spotting (e.g., their grunts spotting your hidden tank for his hidden tanks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Not every battle is a meeting engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galatine Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Here's a question on topic: Is there anything for tanks comparible to the 'hide/target/hide' set of commands infantry can be given? This sequence sets a unit to focus on particular target for which to fire on only at an ideal kill range? (p159, Hide/Unhide) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Juardis: Well, if we wish to open the Aitken gamey dismounted AT guns during beginning of meeting engagement Pandora's box, then hiding your tanks in scattered trees at the beginning of a ME is gamey . Let's face it, if you want to talk real life, if you're advancing and expecting to meet the enemy, I doubt seriously a tanker would drive his tank into scattered trees and idle his engine. No, he would be ready to move and fire at a moments notice. Furthermore, how could he have gotten into the scattered trees without being spotted from any units in LOS. Gamey gamey gamey!!!! That is...if one believes Aitken . Me? I hide them in scattered trees and unmask them at an opportune time . Works fairly well so long as you don't get burnt by absolute spotting (e.g., their grunts spotting your hidden tank for his hidden tanks).<hr></blockquote> Geezus, will you drop the gamey thing? I can come up with any number of valid reason for each one of your "gamey" issues. Gamey is when you take advantage of the game's engine to win a battle. It is not starting AT guns in trees, or tanks in scattered trees. Lets stay on the topic. As for hiding tanks... I have encountered many times in my life a copse of trees on the very side of the road that I couldn't see into standing only 50 feet away let alone 500 meters. I am not sure about scattered trees but woods or tall pines should be able to easily conceal a tank from almost any distance. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Units should be ALWAYS difficult to spot unless they move or fire. The ghuman eye reacts very much on movement. A gun and even a tank in covered terrain and with some camo is indeed VERY difficult to spot. Placing a vehicel in open terraine at the beginning...I guess you have a 50:50 chance to be killed first. For me it's more important to stay covered until I figured out where the enemy is. Then I have enough time to kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Jeff, note the smilies...refer back to one of your fellow cesspoolers (Aitken) threads on this topic...then you will see the true way. Which is that I am indeed making fun of the ridiculousness (word?) of the gamey argument while acknowledging that there are those that will no doubt argue is gamey. And therefore I preemptively laugh at them as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scipio: Placing a vehicel in open terraine at the beginning...I guess you have a 50:50 chance to be killed first. For me it's more important to stay covered until I figured out where the enemy is. Then I have enough time to kill him.<hr></blockquote> In my case, that's a 100% guarantee that my tank will die first . My experience is that a tank hiding in open terrain will be spotted by anything within LOS (1000m with overcast sky during the day is the most I've seen). And since your tank is hiding, it won't get off a shot until it knows it's being shot at. If the first enemy round hits your tank or close by, then he'll respond. But if the first enemy round lands long, he may not even notice that he's being shot at and remain hidden. The best rule of thumb is to NEVER hide your tank in open ground UNLESS you're in a reverse slope with no LOS to anywhere the enemy might be. [ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Juardis ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Juardis: Jeff, note the smilies...refer back to one of your fellow cesspoolers (Aitken) threads on this topic...then you will see the true way. Which is that I am indeed making fun of the ridiculousness (word?) of the gamey argument while acknowledging that there are those that will no doubt argue is gamey. And therefore I preemptively laugh at them as well <hr></blockquote> Ahh, I see. Well then, I apologize for getting out the rubber hose on you. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scipio: Placing a vehicel in open terraine at the beginning...I guess you have a 50:50 chance to be killed first. For me it's more important to stay covered until I figured out where the enemy is. Then I have enough time to kill him.<hr></blockquote> No, your chance is much worse. There may be more than one enemy units in LOS. The enemy units don't have to be exposed to other parts of your line, they may be hidden to your other units. Thus your tank is probably alone against several enemy units, each threatend only by one of your units, which devides the survival chance of your tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 I was speaking about one tank vs one tank, and my own not hidding - you damned hairsplitters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scipio: I was speaking about one tank vs one tank, and my own not hidding - you damned hairsplitters.<hr></blockquote> Uh, my comment was whether to place a tank in LOS of possible enemy setup positions, which is not recommendable, IMHO. Whether to give a halfway hidden tank a "hide" command is a different question, but I would say not. If the enemy tries the king-of-hill trick, let it shoot at him. The hide command is not good enough to stay unspottet for long anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Trap Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: I'm sure this is possible but I'll ask anyway since it seems risky to try... Can you hide a tank in/behind some trees in the deploy where it has long lines of LOS across the map and yet can't be seen by the enemy because it's concealed? Does anyone set up their tanks like this in the middle of the open with only concealment to protect themselves and yet allowing you to shoot at the first armored target it sees without having to move the unit into view?<hr></blockquote> There is a simple logical error in this statement, a hidden unit will NOT shoot at first sight in the first place. As far as gameyness goes, in my book hiding any unit at any time is OK. This command works not just for amush situations but also for 1) consevsation of ammo, 2) efforts to confuse the enemy, 3) and general concealment to avoid an FO's eye. Does the hide command have any affect on planes? This I do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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