How will you use your SturmTiger?

[Jeff Heidman]

My problem is this:

Somwhere at BTS headquarters there is a List. On this List are features and stuff to put into CM2. This list is, by definition, infinitely long. There is *always* something else that can go into the game.

However, the time and resources to produce the game are, also by definition, finite. So that means that somewhere on this list is a line. Everything in front of the line goes in, everything behind the line is out. BTS deciding that the SturmGollyWollyLookAtTheReallyNeatoExplosionEvery10MinutesTiger being in front of that line means that *something* got pushed back behind that line.

Maybe that is because they realized that they have so much time and resources compared to their feature list that even pointless, tactically irrelevant toys like this have a place. Maybe what got pushed back was the KampfenWagen Stove Mark XII.

Sadly, I do not think that is the case. It is much more likely that they just moved this way up the list, past much more meaningful and worthy items, in order to make some people who are overly impressed with things that make big booms happy.

As someone who is not overly impressed with big booms, I find that dissapointing. From a business perspective, maybe I am in such a minority that it made sense.

In any case, the unit is still tactically useless in a game at this scale. Either it will do little or nothing, and be a huge waste, and hence lose for its owner, or it will decide the outcome of the game on the luck of that single shot it will get off. In either case, there is not much in the way of tactics that will matter, and it will basically coem down to luck. Just like ordering up those 16" battleship guns FOs do now.

Jeff Heidman

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

Hey, can you guys imagine what will happen if BTS doesn't fix the self-targeting for vehicles? I can see threads with people screaming bloody murder because their ST decided a panicked crew 600 metres away was a better target then an entrenched company you've been waiting to destroy! :eek:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something even worse: we've all seen the threads where some guy is steamed because his Priest knocked itself out shooting the corner of the house it was next to when firing...

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Something even worse: we've all seen the threads where some guy is steamed because his Priest knocked itself out shooting the corner of the house it was next to when firing... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, in the case of the ST, it will be the corner of a city block!

Oh, and Jeff has a good point. Personally, I'd rather see mounted cossack cavalry...but that's just me

[PzKpfw 1]

Well they could always just make a ST Co an off bnoard Arty asset with 4 STs per battery, or decide not to include the ST at all, as came up in the imfaumous IS-3 thread.....

Regards, John Waters

[Freak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

Well they could always just make a ST Co an off bnoard Arty asset with 4 STs per battery, or decide not to include the ST at all, as came up in the imfaumous IS-3 thread.....

Regards, John Waters<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be interesting. If ST was modeled llike that would the ST Battery be more accurate then off board arty? I am assuming that it would be, mainly becouse it has has much shorter range.

Good point about the IS-3.

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]

[Stacheldraht]

Jeff, of course BTS has to make choices and establish priorities, but as they said in that interview, they're including some things "just for fun." Surely that's not an improper goal for a piece of entertainment software?

Granted, people find different aspects of CM entertaining, but it seems pretty clear, unsurprisingly, that there's a real interest in military hardware among CM players. Many players seem to be interested in the weapon systems in their own right and don't always feel constrained to use them in strict accordance with history. (No point in the game then; we know who won.) Surely the inclusion of the ST and other rarities won't preclude common and historically significant vehicles and features.

[Stacheldraht]

From what I've read, the ST was designed for close-range assaults against fortified buildings. Why make it an off-map asset? That would make more sense for things like the Karl siege mortars (60 and 54cm mortars on tracked platforms) or railway guns. (I hope, btw, these latter weapons are included as off-map assets, as they played roles in some significant actions.)

[Bruno Weiss]

Jeff Heidman wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As someone who is not overly impressed with big booms, I find that dissapointing. From a business perspective, maybe I am in such a minority that it made sense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if so, then we are a minority of at least two. I could think of a good many things more important to the overall project than the sex appeal of the big boom.

JS-III's, SturmTigers, and the Enola Gay, all may have their place somewhere but not on "my" monitor. Well said Jeff.

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Well if so, then we are a minority of at least two. I could think of a good many things more important to the overall project than the sex appeal of the big boom.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, come on guys, don't be such party poopers. We're talking about unadulterated fun here. There are quite a few folks out here in CM land that just love to see these exotic vehicles in action. Look at how much fun people are having with the rare vehicles in CMBO. Sure, the M16 is missing and what a disappointment. But, egads, Super Pershing vs KT, now that's just plain fun.

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Snake Eyes ]

[Herr Oberst]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Jeff Heidman wrote:

Well if so, then we are a minority of at least two. I could think of a good many things more important to the overall project than the sex appeal of the big boom.

JS-III's, SturmTigers, and the Enola Gay, all may have their place somewhere but not on "my" monitor. Well said Jeff.

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you think about the ST, how much additional work is needed to do the model? Not too much I think. A little more data work to handle the gun and it is a relatively easy inclusion in terms of effort.

Russian Cossack Cavalry aren't a derivative of an existing vehicle, nor infantry unit. I would expect alot more unique design and coding effort for them than for the ST. Polygons, poygons, polygons for all those horses and riders.

A new vehicle not derived from an existing one has a much greater "effort" cost.

Multi-turreted vehicles become a bear due to the new code that has to check traversal for each turret. Lines of sight have to be done for each turret. AI now has to debate rotating the hull to bring N turret against M threat, and possibly missing X turret against Y target.

Don't be too hard on BTS for including the SturmTiger instead of something else. When the SturmTiger got moved "above the line" for completion, what got bumped "below the line" was living near the border anyway.

Riddle me this:

If you were a commander during the war, who was told "You have to attack and take this town from the Russians. In light of your previous outstanding record, I have given you Germany's newest super weapon, a SturmTiger, to support your infantry. The General Staff are all watching this first combat deployment of the SturmTiger."

"Take these crossroads. Re-open the supply line. Kill the Bolsheviks. Oh, and in case you are wondering, it would look very bad for you to lose this weapon."

What would you do? And how would you employ this unit?

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stacheldraht:

Jeff, of course BTS has to make choices and establish priorities, but as they said in that interview, they're including some things "just for fun." Surely that's not an improper goal for a piece of entertainment software?

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course not, indeed it is the primary goal of a software project.

All I am saying is that, in my own opinion, I can think of a lot of things that would make the game better (i.e. more "fun") than a SturmTiger. For me, the fun of CM is that it does the best job of any computer wargame at reproducing small scale combat during WW2. Adding this montrsoity does not increase that fun more than adding any number of things they probably will not add.

For example, I would *much* rather have a complete armory of on-board artillery pieces than a SturmTiger. I would much rather see a greater amount of variation in vehicles, so that every single Sherman does not have a gyrostabilizer. I would much rather see every single model of T-34 produced before I see one single ST.

I think all of those things would be more "fun" than this montrosity, the only appealing thing about which is that it is big and makes biggun boom-booms. CM is "fun" because it has a high degree of realism, not because it has "neato" toys. StarCraft has CM all beat to hell in the "neato" toys department.

You do not have to agree with me, I am just throwing out my viewpoint in contrast to what some other people expressed about how much they look forward to leveling entire city blocks with their latest German uber-doohickey.

Jeff Heidman

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Heidman ]

[Freak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Herr Oberst:

Riddle me this:

If you were a commander during the war, who was told "You have to attack and take this town from the Russians. In light of your previous outstanding record, I have given you Germany's newest super weapon, a SturmTiger, to support your infantry. The General Staff are all watching this first combat deployment of the SturmTiger."

"Take these crossroads. Re-open the supply line. Kill the Bolsheviks. Oh, and in case you are wondering, it would look very bad for you to lose this weapon."

What would you do? And how would you employ this unit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hehehe...well put Herr Oberst well put.

[Freak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

You do not have to agree with me, I am just throwing out my viewpoint in contrast to what some other people expressed about how much they look forward to leveling entire city blocks with their latest German uber-doohickey.

Jeff Heidman

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Heidman ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have some fun with it . After all it is just a game. It will be at the least very interesting to see these uber tanks/guns included in the game. I dont see how adding the ST makes the game any less realistic. Of course it will all depend on who you are playing and what tactics he or she is using.

[Stacheldraht]

Jeff, I take your point. It's really just a matter of priorities among different CM players. As far as cool toys, I'd say CM has StarCraft beat because CM's weapons/units are much more subtle and sophisticated, plus their basis in historical reality adds depth by letting players compare the real things and their usage to their in-game counterparts.

Anyway, there's no shame in enjoying the sheer "wow" factor, as unsophisticated as it might be, of big guns and tanks duking it out. Surely lots of CM players also like to visit military air shows or watch documentaries on modern weapon systems and so forth. The same principle comes into play there: a sort of boyish glee at big explosions, fast planes, etc. (That's certainly more respectable than enjoying these things for what they ultimately are: killing machines.)

Either way, there's no chance of CM2 devolving into an arcade shoot 'em up, so I wouldn't worry too much about significant historical features being axed for the inclusion of certain vehicles.

[Stacheldraht]

Btw, the fact that so many different tactical issues about the Sturmtiger have been raised here argues well for that vehicle's inclusion in the game.

[Mr. Johnson--]

I would rather see cavarly or the diffrent varients of the SPW. Esp. the one with the 75mm/48 on the halftrack. Thats cool.

[Freak]

Hey Mr. J....interesting conversation last night eh?

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stacheldraht:

Btw, the fact that so many different tactical issues about the Sturmtiger have been raised here argues well for that vehicle's inclusion in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point, but I haven't seen very much offered, so far, on ST tactics. Where's the beef?

[Mr. Johnson--]

yup.

[securityguard]

all i can say is...

party at my house, and everyone is invited! some one open a keg! *ppfsssht*

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: securityguard ]

[Mattias]

A vehicle that does not fit into the Quick combat mode is not automatically relegated to “what if” scenarios.. There is such a thing as historical scenarios.

There is not one single vehicle that “should not” be included unless it is completely off track in the way it is modelled. Screw play balance, the more vehicles included the better. Scenario designers and players will limit the availability if somehow necessary.

To me CM is not just a game and the Sturmtiger will not be in there for the “fun”, it will be there because it existed and played a part, big or small.

Why complain? After all, no one here knows what is lost, if anything, if the Sturmtiger is included…

M.

P.S.

The AVRE mounting the 290mm spigot is the only vehicle in CM:BO that can take out a bunker from any aspect. It was not intended to go face to face with AT guns and it used the older Churchill chassis as those where the ones available at the time.

[The Commissar]

Oberst,

The bit about the cavalry was a joke. Notice the smiley. Yes, that little round thing which helps indicate humour in what a person is writing. Steve has told me and a few other people in a seperate thread on the subject the very thing you kindly provided here, about 5 months back.

Johnson,

Look, the way I see it, BTS has a major say in things as well. Maybe Steve is a freak for loud bangs. Maybe Charles wets himself in glee when he thiks of the sweet sweet destruction resulting from an explosion of a 380mm rocket. Sure, a couple of guys here would rather see 29 different T-34 variants, each costing a point more or less here and there, with an extra widget or piece of crap glued on to the side. Most people take the good number of versions that will already be provided and not worry about the minute differences that did not make any difference what so ever.

You might say that the ST was in itself such a minute difference when we look at its effect on the war. However, when compared to a widget or an extra backpack to carry cheap vodka on the side of T-34, the ST is cool.

Don't like it, don't use it. It probably doesnt even take up much time, what with it being based on a Tiger(?) hull with a customized turret and a large gun. Besides, by the time it took us to reach this point in the thread, KwazyDawg has already finished coding the beast, probably

Mattias,

This is off topic, but when are you going to reply to my e-mail? The Tourney stars tommorow and if you want to start early, I'm free most of today into the wee hours of the morning. Mail me.

[Mattias]

Commissar,

I sent you no less than three E-mails yesterday, just after 10.00 GMT. You mean none of them reached you? Makes me worried…

In any case, I’, all ready.. just wondering what side you choose

M.

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Bruno Weiss wrote:

I could think of a good many things more important to the overall project than the sex appeal of the big boom.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're as bad as Steve Jobs. The Titanium Powerbook is nice, but I wouldn't call it sexy. A large explosion is similarly distant from my definition of sexy. This afternoon I drew a picture of what I'd call sexy, but I'm keeping it (and in case Mace drops by, no, it doesn't have a fleece).

[The Commissar]

Mattias,

Very strange. I recieved e-mail from other people yesterday...

OK, just to make sure, this is the e-mail, correct?

commissar84128@icqmail.com

Secondly, why don't we meet up in the Chat at the T-house. Im there right now. In fact, Ill be there most of this evening. I choose the Germans, originally. Now you have to bid I believe. We really must discuss this in private though, so by Eastern time zone standards (I live in New York City), I'll be in the forums till 1am, at least.

Yah, yah, I know, I ought to get a life