Too Much Information About Enemy Troop Quality?

[JessRobinson]

One of the aspects of CM that makes it the object of my deep obsession is the degree to which it accurately models so many factors in combat. But one small point that I can’t come to terms with is how friendly units know the troop quality of spotted enemy units. Certainly knowing whether that dug in infantry squad is conscript or elite will affect my approach to it, but the question is….does the way it’s implemented in CM make sense?

This topic has been raised before, but I’m not sure that it’s been explored fully. The best thread I could find which addresses this issue is http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/006627.html .

To my understanding, the premise of knowing enemy troop quality is modeled on friendly units first spotting the enemy, and then observing their actions. I suppose the enemy actions will reveal their quality level. If that’s the case, I have the following questions:

1. Shouldn’t the amount of time the enemy unit is observed affect friendly units’ ability to determine their quality? It seems that as soon as I get to the level of spotting that reveals the number of men in an enemy squad, I get information on their quality. This is regardless of whether or not I’m observing any particular actions on their part, as they may simply be dug in or hiding and stay there.

2. Shouldn’t MY friendly troop quality affect their ability to determine enemy unit quality? If I have green troops spotting the enemy, shouldn’t they be less able to determine enemy quality than my more experienced crack troops.

3. Regarding armored units, are there any particular actions that would reveal their quality? I find that as soon as I spot an enemy Panzer in the open, I immediately know its experience level. How? Shouldn’t that be dependent upon the Panzer first displaying some skill such as knocking out a Sherman Jumbo on the first shot while moving?

4. Isn’t the six-level distinction made (conscript/green/regular/veteran/crack/elite) a bit too fine to be made on the spot in the heat of battle? How designating enemy troop quality as low/medium/high, at least until more observation is made?

I know these are subtle points and yes, they can be answered by saying that identifying enemy troop quality is an abstraction that is relatively well modeled. Am I too far down in the weeds on this one? Maybe. But you know, when you’re obsessed, might as really let it all hang out.

[Gremlin]

This issue has bugged me too (though not in my current PBEM with Jess ). Immediately knowing an enemy unit's experience level can of course lead to a change in tactics, particularly with valuable units like armor or teams. Isn't this knowledge an unfair advantage then?

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War does not determine who is right--only who is left.

--Bertrand Russell

[Dr. Brian]

Realistically, you may be going to far into this, and looking for something that is not really important.

Let me explain.

The scenarios are not random chance. They are designed. The troops knew who they were up against very very often. BTS (and others) have specifically stated that forward recon has been done, etc.

When the engagement we play in CM occurs, the troops already know if they're up against a veteran unit, or a bunch of conscripts.

Sure, there may be slight variants in each squads experience level, but for the most part, the troops have a general idea as to the quality that they will be up against.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gremlin:

This issue has bugged me too (though not in my current PBEM with Jess ). Immediately knowing an enemy unit's experience level can of course lead to a change in tactics, particularly with valuable units like armor or teams. Isn't this knowledge an unfair advantage then?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll bet its a little LATE now to change this one but I have to agree with:

"Immediately knowing an enemy unit's experience level can of course lead to a change in tactics, particularly with valuable units like armor or teams. Isn't this knowledge an unfair advantage then?"

Maybe this might be addressed in CM2

I doubt it will be addressed in v1.1?(next patch whatever)

-tom w

[Peterk]

I don't know - I'm finding that I'm getting quality information only after the sides have been in fairly close contact with much shooting already. It definitely isn't coming soon enough for me to alter my initial attack/defense plan. It might affect my decision as to whether I should abort an attack or keep plugging away at something that seems stalemated.

p.

[Sten]

To me this only makes any real difference in QB's vs the AI. Since the AI will only have units of one experience level, knowing the level of one unit automatically gives you the level of the rest.

But generally, I agree with you. My guess is that this will be handled somewhat differently in CM2.

Sten

[JediJobu]

I agree with the above and while we are at it. why do you also get to see whether a shot into an AVF or tank immobilizes them or hits the gun from over 1000m away.???

I would understand if its close and you can actually see a tread or wheel "fly off" or see the gun barrel bent or broken off, but what about from a distance. i think it's unfair to reveal that kind of info to your enemy that a hit from that far damaged your gun. You can still move and make the enemy think that you've got something that you really don't, a tank or avf capable of firing and have him commit troops to that avf instead of the ones that can still fight?

[Tiger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Immediately knowing an enemy unit's experience level can of course lead to a change in tactics, particularly with valuable units like armor or teams. Isn't this knowledge an unfair advantage then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know which version you're playing but I never get instant troop quality the first time I make contact with a unit. What I usually see is nothing in the unit quality area on enemy forces until I've traded some shots or they've come closer. Then it'll show the quality. Perhaps you're not looking at the enemy unit's details until a couple turns after your troops actually saw them?

Tiger

[Doug Beman]

JediJobu, you have the ability to turn these detailed hit messages off, thereby eliminating the problem.

DjB

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

JediJobu, you have the ability to turn these detailed hit messages off, thereby eliminating the problem.

DjB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK but you can't turn Detailed hits OFF for your opponent.

I always play with Detailed hits on so I can see whats happening to my own tanks, at a quick glance when viewed from overhead.

I would be happy if detailed hits could be "optioned" off for both players but for now it can't be.

-tom w

[JessRobinson]

Tiger, you may be right on that point ( face reddens).

I'll have to watch my intial contact more closely. It's possible that I haven't noticed it until it's displayed after further contact.

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JessRobinson:

2. Shouldn’t MY friendly troop quality affect their ability to determine enemy unit quality? If I have green troops spotting the enemy, shouldn’t they be less able to determine enemy quality than my more experienced crack troops.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You had to be REALLY green to be fighting against the 12th SS and to not be aware that you were fighting sgainst fanatical young Germans led mostly by crack veteran officers...

Henri

[Guest Madmatt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JediJobu:

I agree with the above and while we are at it. why do you also get to see whether a shot into an AVF or tank immobilizes them or hits the gun from over 1000m away.???

I would understand if its close and you can actually see a tread or wheel "fly off" or see the gun barrel bent or broken off, but what about from a distance. I think it's unfair to reveal that kind of info to your enemy that a hit from that far damaged your gun. You can still move and make the enemy think that you've got something that you really don't, a tank or avf capable of firing and have him commit troops to that avf instead of the ones that can still fight?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That target appeared big enough in a gunners (or TC's) site to target it, I think you could make out what sort of damage your round did, at least to some degree.

Obviously there is a level of abstraction here and I too would like to see some more "fogginess" in the FOW. It's one of the things I will be pushing hard for in CM2 and of course CMII.

Madmatt

[Gremlin]

Tiger, I double-checked: one AFV I made out as veteran after trading a couple shots, but still on turn one. Another I made out as veteran immediately at the beginning of the turn one orders phase. It had less cover, though, but both were around 700m away, sunny weather.

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War does not determine who is right--only who is left.

--Bertrand Russell

[JessRobinson]

Gremlin - Hey, are those my AFV's you're talking about!?! I better get them behind cover!

[Kingfish]

While we're on the subject of too much info, I've always wondered how a unit can determine the strength of an enemy squad in certain situations. For instance, in a current PBEM game I assaulted a patch of woods that I had bombared with 2 batteries of 4.2" mortars. Upon entering the woods my men discovered a dug in 7-man squad of German security troops. How do my men determine that it's a 7 man squad as opposed to a 9-man rifle squad that has taken two casualties?

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri:

You had to be REALLY green to be fighting against the 12th SS and to not be aware that you were fighting sgainst fanatical young Germans led mostly by crack veteran officers...

Henri<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shouldn't that kind of info be included in the scenario briefing though?

Jeff Heidman

[Gremlin]

Jess, fine by me--then they can't shoot anything

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War does not determine who is right--only who is left.

--Bertrand Russell

[David Stone]

I would like to see a FOG OF WAR setting titled: "extreme"

With it, in CM2, you would tone-down all spotting and especially identification issues.

[Peterk]

Isn't a lot of that supposed information false though? I've had enemy tanks that I've supposedly immobilized suddenly pick up and scoot away. I've had tanks that have supposedly suffered a gun hit suddenly blast me right in the kisser as I creep closer to it.

I have a feeling that all you're getting is what your guys think happened and what they think they're up against. There's no guarantee that it's accurate. And that's good fog-of-war implementation. Not knowing anything at all via an ultra-extreme setting is actually less of a fog of war.

p.

[aka_tom_w]

bump