Rifle grenades and their effectiveness

[Kanonier Reichmann]

After having now lost a StugIII, StuH42 & a Pz IV/70 to rifle grenades I'm wondering how effective they were in real life? My understanding was that they weren't nearly as useful as a Panzerfaust and yet I've lost 3 AFV's in 2 games to these weapons, one of which hit my Stug at a range of about 50 to 60 metres. Did they use a shaped charge warhead or were they simply a highly effective H.E. charge because from what I've seen in the game it's always one shot, one kill.

Second question, could they be adapted easily to the M1 Garand semi-auto rifle or were they only able to be fired from the bolt action Springfield? If they could only be fired (easily) from the Springfield then why are they modelled in CMBO as we all know that the American squads have no inherent Springfield rifles in their makeup (only the Sharpshooters have them). I would love to know whether it was actually recorded that they achieved many major AFV kills (as opposed to halftracks & lesser "light" vehicles etc.) in the ETO when compared with the main infantry AT weapon- the Bazooka.

Signed

Confused.

:confused:

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: Kanonier Reichmann ]

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Bumpity bump.

Does anybody have any thoughts on these very effective killers?

Regards

Jim R.

[Michael Emrys]

I suspect that you may have a just cause for grievance. I always play the Americans and have never yet gotten a kill with a rifle grenade, but that is probably because German armor has never gotten close enough to give me a shot in any of my games.

I don't know what the kill ratio was in the war, but I would bet that there were no more than a hundred tanks or other AFVs killed by them in the entire war. For one thing, I suspect that it was not easy to hit a vehicle-sized target with them. There were other preferred anti-armor weapons available. I wonder if the troops even carried them in the same numbers shown in the game.

Michael

[JasonC]

They did have a shape charged warhead (HEAT). The reports I have seen on its penetration vary somewhat, but the more believeable figure puts the penetration at around 60mm of steel. That is .6 of what a bazooka does, but enough to penetrate most types (below Tigers than is) from the sides or rear, and all light armor from the front.

They did fire easily from the M-1. The confusion there seems to be about version numbers for the launcher rather than the grenade. The M7 had to block the gas tube of the M-1 to avoid excessive pressures in the barrel, so with it attached the M-1 had to manually cock the bolt. The M7A1 corrected this and could be fired semi-auto from the M-1, with "normal" action.

The range was comparable to the faust, with similar projectile velocities. It is a smaller charge to throw. The lighter round allows somewhat better range, though at the cost of accuracy, if fired in a high arc rather than flat. Accuracy was undoubtedly less, just from being a spigot type mount rather than a full launch tube. And of course the faust will penetrate front armor on just about anything, which the rifle grenades won't.

The Germans, incidentally, also made extensive use of rifle grenades before they had fausts - they fired off 18 million of them from 1.5 million launchers. Production continued through May 1944. The faust was clearly better and preferred.

But how many tank kills anyone got with the things is another story. It could not have been all that high. There are confirmed tank kills with both the German and the US type, though, including a few Panzer IVs KO'ed by the US ones. The usual case is a buttoned tank inside US defenses with its infantry cover stripped away, hunted down mostly with zooks but occasionally with these critters.

In CM, their accuracy may be too high, but the range and penetration capabilities appear to me to be correct. The range window US rifle grenades were meant for, in general, was 40-100 (odd) yards. This was the window between the distance a man could throw a grenade, and the minimum range of the 60mm mortar. The frag versions were used to toss HE in that window. HEAT versions were used against bunkers too (especially in the Pacific), sometimes from quite close.

[Soddball]

I wonder whether their perceived level of effectiveness in CM is linked directly to tactics employed by CM players that wouldn't have been employed IRL. As you were describing, Jason, attested kills indicate that the tanks were deprived of infantry cover. Perhaps what players are observing is less incorrect modelling and more incorrect screening of their armour.

[ParaBellum]

Ahem, one question:

What were your tanks doing so close to enemy infantry?

[lcm1947]

WoW! I can't believe they had that much luck or in your case that bad of luck. That's what it's got to be cause I don't recall ever having a or if any just one or two tops take out a tank of any size. I have tryed and tryed to get my troops to knock out a tank time after time and nothing happens well except having them get shot to pieces for their work. I also normally use airborne troops but only regular ones not elite or anything. My gripe is how easy German troops can take out my tanks but I guess they actually did more often then the US troops so it's probably modelled correct. Well, I will have to try it again as you have given me hope. I recently have just about stopped trying but now? Thanks for the good news but sorry for your bad luck.

[Slapdragon]

I think you got unlucky. At 50 meters, I lined up US squads with rifle grenades opposite Stugs turned with rear facing the threat and imobilized. In 100 confrontations, 12 Stugs were lost. Hardly a huge killer in those perfect situations. Many infantry units seemed reluctant to fire rifle grenades. Those that fired wasted more than 75 percent of their shots. Many infantry units plain old went to ground and never got up once they fired the first shot.

[CrapGame]

I have only had one kill of an AFV with rifle grenades. What was reported to be a "Tiger?" got immobilized in one of my minefields, however, it was neatly out of LOS of my AT guns. Every time I tried to get a bazooka near it, it would tear it to shreds. So, I split 1 platoon into split squads, had my 81mm FO smoke the area, and ran the split squads to all points of the compass around the tank. The squad that got to the rear first KO'd it with the first shot, and when the smoke cleared, the lousy Mk IV was no more.

[von Lucke]

In the game the maximum range of the Ami rifle grenade is 60m. The maximum effective range (the range in which you can expect to score a kill greater than 50% of the time) is about half that, 30m. Also, much in the manner of any other type of specialty round ('fausts, T, C), the unit will be more inclined to use it based on the number available.

Personally, I've scored kills on a Panther (it was immobilized first, and got hit in the rear), a moving PSW 234 (side shot), and my favorite, a frontal kill against an H39 (from ambush) --- not to mention several half-tracks.

I wouldn't go stalking tanks with rifle grenades, but if the enemy comes to you...

[Slyspy]

I had a US rifle squad take out a Tiger at 50m with a rifle grenade just yesterday. This was unusual (a weak point hit on the top) but I have seen them do stirling work against other AFV, so long as the infantry are firing down onto the top of a slow target. Their accuracy and penetration seem too low to get kills any other way, which seems fair enough. I have noticed that Allied squads seem much more eager to fire their RGs than the Germans are to use their PFs, but maybe thats just me.

[Treeburst155]

I use Allied rifle grenades just like I would use panzerfaust 30's with similar results. Just get within 30 meters, and on the side or rear and you can penetrate anything except maybe Tigers and King Tigers (I've never had the opportunity). My heaviest kill with rifle grenades is a Panther.

[KiwiJoe]

Ive taken out 2 afvs in almost 2 yrs with rgs. I suspect your tactics are at fault. What are you doing having a PZIV Lang within 60m of infantry! Its a long range tank hunter. Try keeping your armour back further and scout ahead with infantry before advancing into unknown ground.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Thank you very much J.C. (the MAN!) for your very informative reply, much appreciated.

As for my tactics, I agree with all of you that you shouldn't let American infantry get as close as that but in the "real" world of Combat Mission when you're up against either hordes of veteran paratroopers on the attack (ie charging at your AFV's) or hordes of Crack Rifle 44 squads on the attack (similar charging tactic) then one can occasionally get caught out.

It's interesting also that all three Stugs/StuH's/Pz IV-70's were desperately trying to reverse away from the enemy units and put distance between themselves & the enemy but to no avail. It appeared, from my point of view, that a moving target was still easy to hit even at about 55 metres although, they were admittedly, crack troops.

On the flip side, naturally I've NEVER seen any of my American squads use their rifle grenades to good effect yet, in almost 1 and a half years of Combat Missioning. I must be cursed.

Thanks for all your input.

Regards

Jim R.