Recoiless Rifles... Why the limitations?

[Dogface21]

I recently got 2 75mm RRs in a QB, and I was suprised that you couldnt go inside a building with them. Why?, they dont appear to be big, certainly heavy, but it couldnt be more than an HMG. My (limited) experiance with them is that they are pretty useless, slow, and vulnerable.

In this scenario, I had hidden one in a small patch of pines, and when a scout car was within 45 meters, it opened up. It, at 45m mind you, IMMOBILIZED the scout car. I fully realize that luck has alot to do with it, but cmon, a 75mm c round at 45m shouldve drilled it. The scout car turned and gave a burst of MG fire back, the regular crew(regular crack smokin crew) ditched out and was promptly cut down.

Yeah, somtimes sh!t happens, no doubt, but this seems to always happen with RRs. If your men could at least carry them into a heavy building, it would increase survivability and effectivness a bit.

This is somthing that has probably been argued to death, but the search doesnt work.

How effective were these things historicly?

Does anyone have a good way to use em?

Thanks

[Michael Emrys]

Ever try firing a RR from inside an enclosed space? You might learn very quickly why your troops refused the gambit.

Hint: backblast.

Michael

[Andreas]

I take an AT gun any day over a RR, but they are not ineffective. I have seen the 75mm variety drill Shermans at pretty good ranges. Luck of the draw.

[Mattias]

Historically they were used as infantry guns and artillery. Basically the same missions as their recoiling siblings, AT being mostly an emergency requirement. If used from a distance and not exposed they can be very effective indeed.

When you asked about why they wouldn't go into buildings I thought you were kidding

Firing a RR gun inside a building would result in the same exciting, memorable, not to mention terminal, experience as standing next to the engine outlets of an F-16 fighter blasting off, from that small room.

M.

[Dogface21]

I didnt think of backblast...duh, I geuss its alot worse than a shreck or zook then.

[Rifle1860]

The backblast on these weapons is HUGE. I had a chance to fire a few rounds on a 106 RR (many moons ago) and was nearly turned inside out. RR weapons are supposed to be lighter because the weapons system does not have to sustain any of the recoil. The round goes out the front and the expanding gas goes out the back and the weapon basically stays in the same place. One of the main advantages is that you can mount a relatively heavy caliber weapon on a light vehicle (In my case it was a modified 52 pattern jeep). Same general concept as a rocket laucher but MUCH more. Firing from an enclosed space would almost certainly kill the crew.

[JasonC]

The German 75mm and 105mm RRs, which were developed relatively early in the war, are not the same animal as the late war US shoulder-fired 57mm and 75mm RRs. They are considerably heavier weapons, weighing hundreds of pounds, and fired from gun carriages not the shoulder.

They are far heavier than HMGs (even assembled 50 cals) or for that matter than even assembled 81mm mortars. They are more like the size of a 4.2" or 120mm mortar, or a 75mm pack howitzer - if you are familiar with either.

Compared to 75mm and 105mm full howitzers they were lighter, which was the attraction of the recoilless principle. They were meant for airmobile or mountain operations, where weight is a critical factor, but not meant to be light enough for "infantry" handling. The 105mm generally fired indirect as a substitute for tube artillery. The 75mm were used in place of regimental or battalion infantry guns.

Greater use was not made of them because (besides backblast problems) the ammo was twice as expensive in material terms, which meant they were only really an improvement overall in limited transportation ability situations.

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dogface21:

In this scenario, I had hidden one in a small patch of pines, and when a scout car was within 45 meters, it opened up. It, at 45m mind you, IMMOBILIZED the scout car. I fully realize that luck has alot to do with it, but cmon, a 75mm c round at 45m shouldve drilled it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Distance wont matter with a hollow charge round because it is not dependent upon kinetic energy to penetrate the armor. However, sloped armor will affect it. But, my guess is that the round hit the track of the vehicle, which resulted in the immobilzation of it. You wont be able to knock out a vehicle with a track hit, the body of the vehicle is relatively unharmed.

[Andreas]

Weight of Leichtgeschuetze:

7,5cm Standard - ?

7,5cm Mountain - 270kg (special version, could be broken down)

7,5cm Para - 175kg (special version)

Total production 653 (1940-44)

Fired an ordinary HE shell 6,500m.

10,5cm - 436-480kg (depending on version) and fired ordinary HE round from lFH 8,000m. 528 produced 1941-44.

From Lexikon der Wehrmacht. German speakers only

[Mattias]

15cm Leichtgeschütz 42

Produced in limited numbers 1942 and onwards. Tested as a replacement for the sIG 33 but was dropped when the RR guns went out of fashion in Germany later in the war.

Weight: 850 kg

Projectile weight: 38 kg

Range 6000 meters

It had a maximum elevation of +70 degrees, one wonders though, if it actually was possible to fire the gun at that elevation.

M.

[StellarRat]

No one in their right mind would fire one from inside a building unless the wall behind them was gone. There is way too much back blast.

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: StellarRat ]

[Yowie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> No one in their right mind would fire one from inside a building unless the

wall behind them was gone. There is way too much back blast. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes its even too dangerous to fire a zook inside a building because of the back blast. I had (on a few occasions) seen the zook set himself (actually, the building he was hiding in) on fire after firing a shot.

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Lexikon der Wehrmacht. German speakers only <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but Altavista ain't half bad.

And best of all, you get "Booty Vehicles" when translated into English. I wonder if we'll get Booty Vehicles in CM2?

- Chris

[Dogface21]

I should really just get a book on all the weapons of WW2, that way, my 'wargamer-lite' ass wont make a fool out of himself on forums asking questions that seem so obvious to everyone else.

Any suggestions on a good guide( hopefully with nifty cut-away pictures of tanks and such)on this stuff, where do you all get your info?

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dogface21:

I should really just get a book on all the weapons of WW2, that way, my 'wargamer-lite' ass wont make a fool out of himself on forums asking questions that seem so obvious to everyone else.

Any suggestions on a good guide( hopefully with nifty cut-away pictures of tanks and such)on this stuff, where do you all get your info?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One book series I see mentioned frequently, though I can't claim to own it myself, is "Panzertruppen" by Thomas Jentz. It seems to be trusted by all the JasonC class Ubergrogs so it's probably somewhat right. A great website for German tanks is www.achtungpanzer.com. It's by far the best internent panzer source I've found. www.feldgrau.com is a pretty good general war site.

[Dogface21]

Cool Thanks! Good sites, lotsa crazy info.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dogface21:

Any suggestions on a good guide( hopefully with nifty cut-away pictures of tanks and such)on this stuff, where do you all get your info?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I strongly recommend that you get not just one book (because they nearly all contain errors of one sort or another), but as many as you can find and afford. Almost anything authored by Chamberlain and/or Ellis is a good place to start, but don't stop there.

Cultivate a good used book store or two with large military sections. You might also check out the Military Book Club. They often have good books of interest at reduced prices.

The larger hobby shops often carry the kind of thing you're looking for, but you really need to be near a major urban center for that usually. Expect to end up spending a lot of money, but fortunately you don't have to do it all at once.

Michael

[Mattias]

Dogface,

As far as the Germans goes you will be off to a good start if you can get your hands on these two books by Peter Chambelain and friends.

The first one is available right now and really is the best one stop book on German armour. Not much colour and very much to the point, but it will take you beyond the glossy paper book shelf fillers.

Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two

Peter Chamberlain, Hilary Doyle

The second one is extremely handy as it contains pretty much every weapon that was ever used by the Germans in WWII, from some 57 different bolt action rifles etc.

It should be available in English but I can't find it right now. Here's a link to the German version.

Enzyklopädie deutscher Waffen 1939 - 1945. Handwaffen - Artillerie - Beutewaffen - Sonderwaffen. von Terry Gander, Peter Chamberlain

The "Panzertruppen" books (2 volumes) are very interesting and contain a lot of odd bits and ends that you really come to treasure once you have gone through the basic books (essentially presenting the same facts) a few times. However, I'm not sure they are what you are looking for right now.

Oh, and by the way, Peter Chambelain does a book on allied armour as well, you might want to take a look at that one two.

Peter Chamberlain is not infallible of course but he is a good place to start.

Cheers!

M.

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Dogface21]

Thank you, I really appreciate the help. I love the CM community!

( When youre not all per-snikety with eachother over miniscule details and aguing in circles to no end.)

But really, thank you.

[Cybeq]

Your recoilless rifle should've opened up at much longer range. As has already been pointed out the shaped charge's effectiveness is unaffected by range and it would have rendered the scout car's machine gun less effective when it fired at your gun. 45 meters is PIAT/zook/schreck range.

[Warmaker]

The RRs are alright, but the 105 version has a really slow ROF, IMO. The 75mm is balanced and effective.

The problem with these and the Puppchen is that they have a slow muzzle velocity, so accuracy at anything over short ranges, esp. moving targets, is much to be desired.

A tip to using the RRs/Puppchens is to confine them into built up terrain like forested areas and urban areas where range and LOS is limited. Armor will pretty much be at their mercy unless the opposition knows how to coordinate his armor with infantry.

The 75mm RR has enough firepower to deal with all but the heaviest allied armor so it makes it better to me than the slow firing 105mm RR.

The Puppchen is a real tank killer, decent ROF, and is insanely cheap. A good buy and is a personal favorite for my all infantry force picks or with my Fallschirmjagers on the defense. Even the Jumbos and Pershings can be knocked out from any direction with these bastards.