The Jagdpanther is a superweapon !

[Warmaker]

Best medicine for a case of annoying Stuarts? PaK38 50mm ATGs. Cheaper than a Stuart itself believe it or not. Goes throgh HTs like a singleman in a whorehouse.

There's no way you can use 14" Naval Guns when the Jagdtiger is introduced... am I right? Normandy is a bit far away from inland Germany... not to mention late 1944 or later...

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Jarmo]

I've tried the JagdPanther half a dozen times and have never had any luck with them. A Sherman 76 plonks through the lower hull. A Stuart kills it with a sideshot. Couple of shots from a plain vanilla Sherman first cause gun damage, then immobilization.

Whatever I do, whatever my opponent has, the crew of my übertank is hunkering down in the nearest bush two seconds after the action starts.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker:

There's no way you can use 14" Naval Guns when the Jagdtiger is introduced... am I right? Normandy is a bit far away from inland Germany... not to mention late 1944 or later...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's possible to set it up by switching paramater dates when you're using the unit editor. You can get any anachronistic combinations that way, I believe.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

Couple of shots from a plain vanilla Sherman first cause gun damage, then immobilization.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for posting that. These ubertank fetishists occasionally need to be reminded that the Germans actually lost on the field of battle.

[JonS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

only if you can convince it to come within range of the battleships.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here kitty kitty kitty, come play with nice Mr Sherman. Come on kitty kitty kitty.

BAD KITTY, now you get to play with Mr 14" :mad:

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonS:

Here kitty kitty kitty, come play with nice Mr Sherman. Come on kitty kitty kitty.

BAD KITTY, now you get to play with Mr 14" :mad:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course you may pull it out and find out it is only a 4.5" with an attitude.

[CMplayer]

Okay this calls for a test. One jagdtiger versus one 14" naval spotter.

Turn one at 60 seconds the spotting round immobilizes the kitty. The rest of the ammo fails to destroy it, though the gun is damaged. The spotter runs up to the tank, but the danged kitty coughs up a little black square hairball and the next thing I know the spotter is shouting 'my arm!'. German victory.

Test two: The kitty gets immobilized again right off, but this time the crew makes the unwise decision to bail out. They are flattened by the next salvo. Allied total victory.

Hey, it looks like a balanced scenario.

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[antaresqc]

Okay, i'll get it straight.. would you prefer to fight an enemy in a sherman or in a jagdpanther ? WHEN USED RIGHT, that tank can really make your day.. it's all a matter of doctrine; the french had the best tanks, they still lost in 6 weeks. Historically, the jagdpanthers had to deal with big bad rockets fired at their top armor from aircraft, artillery strikes that would be equivalent to 30 arty spotters in combat mission terms, mechanical unreliability, lack of spare parts, the list can go on and on.. but it's still a superb vehicule.. but my preferred workhouse as the germans is the Hetzer: cheap, effective, reliable and survivable (not to mention that I have a nice pic of one I saw in Normandy)

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

They also bog a hell of a lot less. The best antidote to a Jagdpanther is a rainy day. Not so "uber" when the Stuarts start swarming around their backsides. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also noted that Panther and Jagdpanther tend to bog a lot.

I have difficulties believing that this is historically accurate, given the sophisticated suspension and powerful motor.

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[PJungnitsch]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have difficulties believing that this is historically accurate, given the sophisticated suspension and powerful motor.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It does seem odd, being as the Panther chassis was build specifically to have good flotation. Maybe it was just too much on the heavy side. Still...

"It has been claimed that our tank is the more maneuverable. In recent tests we put a captured German Mk V against all models of our own. The German tank was the faster, both across country and on the highway and would make sharper turns. It was also the better hill climber."

"The Mark V and VI in my opinion have more maneuverability and certainly more flotation. I have seen in many cases where the Mark V and VI tanks could maneuver nicely over ground where the American M4 would bog down."

"We want wider tracks. This new E8 suspension is a lot better as far as flotation is concerned than our old suspension system, but the German tanks still have better maneuverability in the field."

"The consensus of opinion of all personnel in the 66th Armored Regiment is that the German tank and anti-tank weapons are far superior to the American in the following categories.

Superior Flotation.

Greater mobility. This is directly contrary to the popular opinion that the heavy tank is slow and cumbersome"

[JonS]

Out of curiosity, just what do they mean floatation mean in this context?

Is it the smooth ride of a good suspesion system (eg "It just seems to float along over rough ground")

Or is it literally 'floatation,' as in the vehicle seems to float on water (or at least on muddy/boggy ground) where others sink.

I think it might be another of those cultural things

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: JonS ]

[PJungnitsch]

I believe it is flotation as in 'not sinking so much into soft ground', ie:

"Wherever we have seen Tiger and Panther tanks they have not demonstrated any inferior maneuverability. Near Puffendorf, Germany, several Tiger Royal tanks were encountered. These Tiger Royals were able to negotiate very soft ground and their tracks did not sink as deeply into the soft ground as did our own. Our tracks should be widened to a point where there would be no question of adequate flotation. The makeshift solution of adding paddle feet is not satisfactory."

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonS:

Out of curiosity, just what do they mean floatation mean in this context?

Is it the smooth ride of a good suspesion system (eg "It just seems to float along over rough ground")

Or is it literally 'floatation,' as in the vehicle seems to float on water (or at least on muddy/boggy ground) where others sink.

I think it might be another of those cultural things

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: JonS ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flotation is a technical term that is applied to tanks, cars, trucks, anything, that defines how deeply the contact area of a wheel or tread imprints on the ground. Good floatation is needed to keep from bogging, but to much flotation, and the tread or tire does not bite and looses manueverability.

Flotation is determed both by mass of the vehicle and the contact area of the tread. It also has to do with tread shape and road wheel position, weight distribution and the nature of the ground (some treads do worse in some conditions than others).

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

I also noted that Panther and Jagdpanther tend to bog a lot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would guess that some testing would show that the Panther and Jagdpanther actually don't bog more often than most other tanks. CM gives them average ground pressure, about the same as the Pz IV which doesn't bog much.

[JonS]

machineman and Slap,

cheers.

[Warmaker]

Well, for newer CM'ers trying out those expensive-as-hell Panzers, here's some tips from one of your local "panzer fetishists," me, on using your TDs, in particular the ones with sloped front superstructures. This stuff here is not new to any of the vets out here...

Sloped armor is your friend, whether it is 80mm or even 60mm. The majority of the frontal slopes of the popular German TDs in CMBO are at 55 degrees. As the angles get sharper(higher), it becomes much tougher to penetrate. The "t"ungsten the Allies use so much will suffer HUUUUGE drops in performance when impacting sloped armor at 60 degrees or more. It's not impenetrable, but more than likely it will bounce off and your panzer will itch a little.

Making sure your sloped frontal armor faces the enemy is naturally key for your survivability but be sure to use some fundamentals such as the "hull-down" position. This minimizes the silhouette of your tank to the enemy and it blocks off several generally less protected areas: The lower front hulls and just as importantly, the tracks. Several of you here spoke of losing your Jagdpanthers to lower front hull penetrations. Pull up the statistics and you'll see the lower hull is at 60mm compared to the upper hull at 80mm. Force them to shoot at your more heavily armored, yet sloped upper hull.

Another thing that if you use the hull-down position you generally will find yourself on the reverse side of a slope. What this means is that suddenly, instead of having 80mm of armor sloped at 55 degrees, you may find yourself having that same armor value but sloped at now 65-70 degrees for example. Tungsten will roll off like rain on your umbrella.

Next tip: Don't sit there and let the enemy pelt your expensive tank with everything they've got including the kitchen sink, washer, dryer, and their grandmother. Your crew could be bravely plinking soda cans (Shermans and other such flimsy things) but sooner or later lady luck is gonna say, "enough!" and cut your crew's career short with a lucky penetration at a weakpoint. Pull away at the right moment and reposition yourself elsewhere. It's just like gambling: The hardest part is knowing when to call it quits.

Plinking a soda cans is great fun! Don't let your men's careers get cut short from your bad gambling! Cut out at the appropriate time, assume a new defensive position for your TD, and continue plinking away when the enemy comes in and takes your old position and screaming victory!

And thank you for reading the post (if you did, I'm sorry) of your friendly neighborhood "panzer fetishist." Have a good night, and watch out for those earlier Shermans... they light up pretty easily! Great for marshmallows though!

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Warmaker,

Fine advice

However last Hetzer I had was brewed up by 1ST SHOT of a M10'76mm in Upper Hull (no weak point) !!...

Data indicated it was'nt possible due to slope, but I forgot than tha M10 was HIGHER on a hill, so...

Nice thingie though, I also like much the JagdPanzer IV. Put it behind a wall (so no lower hull penetration ! ), once I smoked 3 Churchs in row, the Jagie survived the fight

JagdPanther is impressive but I find it very unpractical... Slow, prone to bogging, and tendency to catch Gun/Immob damage :eek:

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

I would guess that some testing would show that the Panther and Jagdpanther actually don't bog more often than most other tanks. CM gives them average ground pressure, about the same as the Pz IV which doesn't bog much.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course I did exactly this. Have four pieces of most vehicles types on a test map and let them have a race. The Panther is amoung the worst units in the games with regards to bogging.

[Warmaker]

Yeah, forgot to mention the relation in height between you and the target. Generally avoid situations where the target is at a higher elevation than you which lessens the benefit of sloped armor (the game of angles I guess) and not to mention exposing your top armor.

For me, the Jagdpanzer IV and Panzer IV/70 do the best when I use them. I do alright with the Jagdpanther nowadays but starting off resulted in lots of dead cats. When I use the Hetzer, it usually results in one of two extremes: Either it kicks LOTS of @$$ or it dies ingloriously by a .50 cal on its flank. I have to admit that the small silhouette of the Hetzer is VERY nasty!

[SurlyBen]

Yeah, it is important to be at a higher elevation than your target whenever possible. Also avoid driving down the front side of hills, as that reduces your slope as well.

One way I like to use the typical rounded hilltop of your average QB is to not come over right on top. I put my tanks on the back of the hill 2-5 meters lower than the hilltop, and never go higher than that. Instead I use the hilltop as a shield to limit my opponent's LOS to my tank. Prevents everything and the kitchen sink from shooting at the tank at once, and limits the ability of flanking units to get off a shot, since I can put the hilltop between me and them.

Surlyben

[Agua Perdido]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO:

However last Hetzer I had was brewed up by 1ST SHOT of a M10'76mm in Upper Hull (no weak point) !!...

Data indicated it was'nt possible due to slope, but I forgot than tha M10 was HIGHER on a hill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also, remember that the Hetzer's front hull is 60/60c. The 'c' means it has a curved mantlet (the thing around the gun where it sticks through the front armor, for those less-groggy of us). I don't know exactly how the calculation works, but if you hit the mantlet, I think there's a chance you'll be facing <60 degree slope. I KOed a Hetzer through the upper hull on level ground with an M10 at about 400m in a recent game, and I think this is what happened.

Agua Perdido

[MichaelU]

I think I'll point my PBEM opponent to this thread, it will make him swear even harder than his already impressive tirade. He started a random purchase attack with three Jagdpanthers and assorted lighter tanks. I started with four 75mm Shermans. He now has one gun damaged Jagdpanther and I have two Shermans.

One Sherman got two Jagdpanthers, a Stug, a MkIV and a few halftracks. Those Canadians are pretty rough.

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

Of course I did exactly this. Have four pieces of most vehicles types on a test map and let them have a race. The Panther is amoung the worst units in the games with regards to bogging.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to do a test to see for myself. To the best of my knowledge the chance of a tracked vehicle bogging is based entirely upon its ground pressure rating. The Panther's is a very average 12.5. Therefore, if it is one of the most likely units in the game to bog, then the game works differently whan what I thought. I'll see what the tests say.

[Redwolf]

Vanir, I know what we assume the bog probablity to be based on.

However, there must be more. In addition to the Panther issue, you will find that a StuG IIIG has more problems than the Panzer IV. The StuG doesn't really get immobile that often, but crossing mud it is much slower than the Pz IV (due to bog pauses and basic speed).

The Pz IV is up to par with the Hetzer and the non-bogging Panthers, while the StuG joins the Tiger 1.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Ok, this took way too long, but here it is. I took 7 German and 6 Allied tanks and drove them a distance of exactly 100m over snowy ground. Tests were allowed to continue until all vehicles had reached the end or had immobilized. The test was repeated 75 times.

Average ground pressure rating: 12.9 psi

Total number of bogs: 143

Total number of immobilizations: 44

Average number of bogs per vehicle: 11

Average number of immobilizations per vehicle: 3.38

Individual vehicle breakdown:

Jadgpanther

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 12.6

Bogs: 8

Immobilizations: 3

Hetzer<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 11.3

Bogs: 0 :eek:

Immobilizations: 0

King Tiger<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 14.1

Boggs: 25

Immobilizations: 6

Tiger<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 13.8

Bogs: 25

Immobilizations: 5

Pz IVH<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 12.6

Bogs: 3

Immobilizations: 0

Panther G (late)<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 12.5

Bogs: 10

Immobilizations: 5

StuG42<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 14.6

Bogs: 11

Immobilizations: 5

Churchill VIII<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 13.6

Bogs: 13

Immobilizations: 2

Sherman M4A3(76)W<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 15.1

Bogs: 24

Immobilizations: 8

Sherman M4A3<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 13.6

Bogs: 15

Immobilizations: 6

Stuart<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 11.3

Bogs: 3

Immobilizations: 1

Hellcat<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 12.5

Bogs: 4

Immobilizations: 2

Sherman Easy Eight<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Ground pressure: 11.0

Bogs: 2

Immobilizations: 1

Conclusions:

I think the sample size is too small to draw any definite conclusions from, but I don't feel like spending more time on this. If anyone wants the test I can email it to you.

I'm also not sure if immobilizations should be counted. I don't know if vehicle characteristics effect the chance of a bogged vehicle to unbog. For all I know the chance may be the same for all vehicles, so take those figures with a big grain of salt.

Having said all that, there are some obvious trends here. The high ground pressure (13.6 and up) vehicles all had above average numbers of bogs. The low ground pressure vehicles (11.3 and down) all had very few or none.

This leaves the middle vehicles, including the Panther, Jagdpanther, Pz IV and Hellcat. These numbers are interesting. All 4 of these vehicles have ground pressure ratings a little below average for this test group, so you would expect them to have fewer than average bogs, which is true for all 4 of them. What is interesting is that there is quite a difference between the Jadgpanther and Panther, and the Pz IV and Hellcat. It's possible this is evidence of some unknown factor, but I think it more likely a result of a too small sample size allowing in statistical anomolies. The reason I think this is that other than their ground pressure, the Pz IV and the Hellcat have little in common. The Hellcat is much faster than the Panther, the Pz IV a bit slower. Also, the lack of any bogs by the Hetzer is obviously an anomolie.

I would further say that I see no evidence that the Jagdpanther deserves its reputation as a bog-prone vehicle. It and the Panther seem fairly average.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

However, there must be more. In addition to the Panther issue, you will find that a StuG IIIG has more problems than the Panzer IV. The StuG doesn't really get immobile that often, but crossing mud it is much slower than the Pz IV (due to bog pauses and basic speed).

The Pz IV is up to par with the Hetzer and the non-bogging Panthers, while the StuG joins the Tiger 1.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you perhaps refering to the Stug IV? The Stug III has a ground pressure of 14.7, one of the worst in the game.

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]