Homba Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Just saw it. About a notch short of Private Ryan, but excellent stuff. I only wish when we saw things from the German's view, the russians would be heard speaking russian, and vice versa.. fine by me for them to speak english in their own scenes... tho I guess Jude Laws english accent was way out of place All in all, loved it. Homba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 I saw this today and I was disappointed. Why did they have to include the love story in this movie? Take out that part, do a better job with the combat between the soldiers and the duels between the snipers and you have a good movie. I also had a hard time getting past the english accents on the Russian soldiers. Why cant they fake them or find actors that can? And the sex scene didn't work. Ima not a prude, it just didn't fit in the movie. Anyway, Id give it a 2 1/2 out of 5 stars. Overall, I was big time disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 When my wife got excited about seeing it, I felt as though it will suck. All her movie picks suck, except for Shanghai Noon. So I am hoping this is the one in a hundred that I will like. Wont see it till next weekend though. ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." Click now for shelter from the Peng thread New Site of the PLA:Rugged Defense Group Ladder The Red Army Mirror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 ----------------- [This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 03-17-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 TeAcH wrote: > Why did they have to include the love story in this movie? I think this was a good idea for two reasons. 1) It emphasises the film's nature as a drama. If they'd concentrated totally on the fighting, it would have seemed as though the film was supposed to be a historically accurate documentary. 2) It was an extension of the issue of male and female soldiers fighting together. If Weisz's character had been a civilian it would have been unnecessary, but as she was a Russian soldier it seems quite appropriate. > I also had a hard time getting past the english accents on the Russian soldiers. Why cant they fake them or find actors that can? These actors could easily have faked accents if that had been the intention. However, I think the effect would have been a bunch of English-speaking actors putting on stereotypical Russian accents. It would be silly for actors to try to express themselves while struggling with a fake accent. In keeping their own accents, their personalities are clearer and they have a broader range of expression. More importantly, I think that languages and accents are fundamentally linked. The Russian accent is emphasised by the words that are being spoken. English words in a Russian accent would just sound strange. That kind of thing is okay for a typical war movie with stereotypical characters playing small parts, but not for a drama with the focus on a few particular characters. I'm British, and I've questioned the accents myself, but when you consider the alternative I think their decision makes a lot of sense. They're not the first to do this either. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Originally posted by Homba: Just saw it. About a notch short of Private Ryan, but excellent stuff. I only wish when we saw things from the German's view, the russians would be heard speaking russian, and vice versa.. fine by me for them to speak english in their own scenes... tho I guess Jude Laws english accent was way out of place Homba Why is an English accent more out of place in Stalingrad than an American or Australian accent? If you want realism the Germans should speak German and the Russian should speak Russian - with no subtitles . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue male Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 I'm going to see it this afternoon. My expectations are middle of the road. I think there will be some good stuff and some hokey stuff too. This was the most expensive movie filmed on the contintent I believe. Hence (in my mind) the need to drop in a love story angle to draw in the female viewer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the producers spent 85 mil (don't know why # this sticks in my mind, don't have time to look up on 'net) on this movie. If they made a film such that it only appealed to WW2 buffs, they would not recoup the cost to make the movie. We'd like like it alot better though. Altas's comment pretty much sums it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Well David, I strongly disagree with your idea of why they needed to include the love story. Some of the best war movies did NOT have them and were better movies because of it. Saving Private Ryan didn't have one. Platoon didn't have one. Patton didn't have one, etc, etc, etc. It was foolish and unnecessary and detracted (for me) from the real story at hand (Russians locked in a desperate struggle for their country in Stalingrad and a great sniper duel). They could have at least toned it way down. Leave the love story for your favorite soap opera. You are entitled to your opinion even if it is wrong. (hah) Frankly, I hope that the new Pearl Harbor movie focuses more on the conflict than on a love affair between two people as the trailer suggests. Sure, they can show how soldiers missed and longed for their loved ones, but in the proper context. Enemy at the Gates did NOT need one. And furthermore, you say you didn't mind the English accents for the Russian soldiers? I dont think it would have limited an actor's ability at all. Didn't seem to affect Mel Gibson in Braveheart, or Catherine-Zeta Jones (English born) in Zorro. Take a movie where Russian accents were used well and there is no comparison. Look at some of Clancy's works. I suppose you wouldn't mind it if they did a movie on Guadalcanal and the Japanese had rough Scottish accents. Amazing. TeAcH [This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 03-17-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Originally posted by TeAcH: Take a movie where Russian accents were used well and there is no comparison. Look at some of Clancy's works. Teach, I agree with you on the most part, but where did you say there were movies with good Russian accents? Ive seen many and they sounded hacked and rather silly. When my folks and I watch a English movie with supposed Russians in it, we usually end up laughing at the butchered words and phrases. For example, I nearly craped my pants when I heard the evil Russian terrorist yell "Baaa-ladi!!" in "Air Force 1". Then again, that wasn't a good movie, period. Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" [This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 03-17-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Teach if you think Pearl Harbor is going to leave out a love story, you will be very disapointed. I could easily look past any cute niceities and just enjoy a new war movie I've never seen. But Pearl Harbor will not even be worth the 3 dollars of a afternoon show and Enemy at least was worth 3 or 4 bucks. If you want to see how bad Pearl Harbor is going to be go see "The Rock" and a "Thin Red Line". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Originally posted by TeAcH: And furthermore, you say you didn't mind the English accents for the Russian soldiers? I dont think it would have limited an actor's ability at all. Didn't seem to affect Mel Gibson in Braveheart, or Catherine-Zeta Jones (English born) in Zorro. Take a movie where Russian accents were used well and there is no comparison. Look at some of Clancy's works. I suppose you wouldn't mind it if they did a movie on Guadalcanal and the Japanese had rough Scottish accents. Mel Gibson does a crap Scottish accent. Americans doing German accents just make me cringe. I can do that better than them. If you don't go for having the original language, you should not have people speak in an accent, because they would not in their language. Having someone speak in a fake accent is embarassing to hear. When the Russians speak Russian with each other, why would they have an accent? Why does them having one make a movie more believable. If you want that level of realism, go for subtitles, with no dubbing. I fail to see what is so amazing about David's opinion. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted March 17, 2001 Share Posted March 17, 2001 Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-: If you want to see how bad Pearl Harbor is going to be go see "The Rock" and a "Thin Red Line". Hehe - I just saw a preview. They blow up lots of modern USN ships. Quite clearly 1960s or later vintage by the looks of it. Funny. I saw Tora Tora Tora a few weeks ago on TV. That was the last that cinema had to say on Pearl Habour, IMO. They should just stay away from it, can only be embarassing. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 I just saw EATG, and I loved it. I think you guys are missing the point of the love story. It's all summed up by Dainlov in his final scene. The point of the love story is that it shows that Communism can't work, because only one of them can have the girl. Danilov realizes that the Communist system will not create a perfect world, because men are inherently imperfect. It's the same point I made in my post in the now-locked thread about the five year old playing CM. I didn't memorize the exact text of Danilov's final speech, but I thought he laid it out pretty clearly. It wasn't the whole point of the movie, but it was an important part. And my wife reminds me: "You've got to have something to interest the women who are going to the movie." I'm surprised you guys are ragging on the Pearl Harbor movie. I'm just glad that they're making historical movies at all, especially historical movies without a heavy PC slant. Why would a love story be inappropriate in a war movie? Don't the boys at the front think about they girls back at home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Originally posted by Germanboy: Having someone speak in a fake accent is embarassing to hear. When the Russians speak Russian with each other, why would they have an accent? Why does some one from the deep south have an accent when talking to another in English? Why do Brits have an accent when talking (from an American's POV)? Accents are real, even with the same language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Originally posted by CavScout: Why does some one from the deep south have an accent when talking to another in English? Why do Brits have an accent when talking (from an American's POV)? Accents are real, even with the same language. Trust CavScout to make a pointless comparison. Sigh. But an American actor speaking with a fake Russian accent to another American actor who answers in a fake Russian accent is different. Geddit? Probably not. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-: Teach if you think Pearl Harbor is going to leave out a love story, you will be very disapointed. I could easily look past any cute niceities and just enjoy a new war movie I've never seen. But Pearl Harbor will not even be worth the 3 dollars of a afternoon show and Enemy at least was worth 3 or 4 bucks. If you want to see how bad Pearl Harbor is going to be go see "The Rock" and a "Thin Red Line". I don't know, some people like girls. Pearl Harbor is not a war movie, so it all depends on your expectations. The Doolittle and Pearl Harbor raids are only used as backdrop. I don't see how you can fault a movie for this. I was an extra on Legends of the Fall, and was pretty disappointed that only 15 minutes of war footage made it to the screen - but on reflection, the movie was simply not about that. I don't see it as an indictment of the film, and if Pearl Harbor will be guilty of anything, it will be of using the war footage to sell the movie to people only interested in military hardware. At least Legends of the Fall was a little more honest with its ad campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 I thought Mel Gibson's attempt at a Scottish accent was fair and did a lot for the movie. As far as Pearl Harbor goes, Ill watch it and I am glad they are making it too, but why does it have to get bogged down in a love story. No one complained that Saving Private Ryan lacked one. What's the big deal? Skirt around the issue all you want fellas. No one seems make a comment on my Scottish speaking Japanese now do they? C'mon. This is a personal opinion issue anyway. I would rather see them employ Russian actors and teach them their line in English. Don't sell a good actor short. Moreover, yeah I agree that it would have been more realistic if they spoke their true languages with subtitles but very few want that. I don't want that either. Strip the humping scene and the love story out of this film, do a better job choreographing the war scenes and put more emphasis on the sniper to increase the drama and I am happy camper. C'mon gang, remember Platoon and Patton? I know the CM'ers liked those films among many other good war movies that did not have the love saga. I just think it detracted from the bigger story and too too much time was spent on it. TeAcH [This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 03-17-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Originally posted by TeAcH: C'mon gang, remember Platoon and Patton? I know the CM'ers liked those films among many other good war movies that did not have the love saga. I just think it detracted from the bigger story and too too much time was spent on it. Yeah I do - they were crap, both of them, Patton royally so, and even a love-story would not have rescued either of them. It is a matter of taste, see. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Originally posted by Germanboy: Yeah I do - they were crap, both of them, Patton royally so, and even a love-story would not have rescued either of them. It is a matter of taste, see. Exactly. And another thing, comparing "Pearl Harbor" or even "Enemy At The Gates" to "Patton" is something of a stretch. "Patton" was supposed to be a almost-biographical look at a particular person. It would be a little hard to inject a battlefield romance into that movie (can anyone here even imagine Patton hitting on a woman? ). "Pearl Harbor," from what I've read, uses the war as more of a backdrop for another story. It's not really a "war movie." "Enemy At The Gates" uses the Battle of Stalingrad as a backdrop for a story about a young Russian sniper and a woman he loves. It never pretended to be anything else. So just cool it everybody and stop expecting everything having to do with World War II to be a documentary. -Andrew ------------------ "No, it's not that kind of relationship. We're just friends. We are together all the time, but I never touch her porcelain skin, her soft, red lips, like rose petals from the emperor's bathwater! Bathwater, I tell you, bathwateeeeeeer!" [This message has been edited by Mirage2k (edited 03-17-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeAcH Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Mirage - Good points. It IS a matter of personal opinion. I know you'll agree with me when I say not everyone WILL like it. Everyone did not like Gone with the Wind, Star Wars, and so on. I didn't care for EATG. I wanted SPR East Front style. I got "As the Gulag turns" and "One life to Snipe" (Soaps) Im out TeAcH [This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 03-17-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 TeAcH wrote: > Well David, I strongly disagree with your idea of why they needed to include the love story. Thanks for letting me know. > Some of the best war movies did NOT have them and were better movies because of it. Saving Private Ryan didn't have one. Platoon didn't have one. This is why I made my point about Weisz's character being a soldier. The US army had no female infantry in either the Second World War or the Vietnam War, so who would the woman be? A French local? A Vietnamese prostitute? > Patton didn't have one, etc, etc, etc. Umm, Patton was ostensibly a true story. If the man concerned had had a romance, so would the film. > It was foolish and unnecessary and detracted (for me) from the real story at hand (Russians locked in a desperate struggle for their country in Stalingrad and a great sniper duel). This is why I made my point about focus. The story is not true. If it had nothing but fighting, it would seem like an accurate account instead of the drama it is. If you see it as a documentary, the romance will get in the way – but if you appreciate it as a drama, there's nothing wrong with it. I think a lot of film critics were put off by the romance, but that's because to them the fighting is realistic, whereas to a military or history enthusiast it's clearly dramatised. > They could have at least toned it way down. This strikes me as another suggestion of what they should have done (after speaking in fake Russian accents) without actually considering the practicalities. How would they tone it down? Just a one-night quickie? They decided there would be a romance and they did it well. To have it, but make it less of a feature, would be an error. > Leave the love story for your favorite soap opera. You are entitled to your opinion even if it is wrong. (hah) What kind of an attitude is that? And, umm, thanks for telling me I'm allowed an opinion. > Enemy at the Gates did NOT need one. And furthermore, you say you didn't mind the English accents for the Russian soldiers? I dont think it would have limited an actor's ability at all. Didn't seem to affect Mel Gibson in Braveheart, or Catherine-Zeta Jones (English born) in Zorro. Are you Scottish, or Mexican? Braveheart was Hollywood nonsense and Zorro was theatrical and comedic. Not the kinds of movie where expression and credibility are particularly important. And I might point out that Gibson was using the accent of English-speakers to speak English, so to use such an example is to miss my point. > Take a movie where Russian accents were used well and there is no comparison. Look at some of Clancy's works. I suppose you wouldn't mind it if they did a movie on Guadalcanal and the Japanese had rough Scottish accents. If the actors playing the Japanese were naturally English-speaking, and the script were in English, I would expect them to use their own accents, for the reasons I have explained. Accents vary throughout a country. A British or American actor could maybe manage a Russian or Japanese sounding accent, but they could not distinguish between the variations of that accent. Instead of every actor in a film using a stereotypical foreign accent, it makes sense for them to keep their own varying accents. Do you think it would be credible to have a Russian or Japanese person speaking their native language with an American or English accent? Do you think they could manage a Philadelphia or South Carolina accent, or a London or Birmingham or Glasgow accent? The concept is silly, and you could only pass it off in a serious film to those who knew no better. > Amazing. > TeAcH Maybe your discursive abilities would be enhanced by a well-reasoned argument rather than a condescending and dismissive attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Do you think it would be credible to have a Russian or Japanese person speaking their native language with an American or English accent? Do you think they could manage a Philadelphia or South Carolina accent, or a London or Birmingham or Glasgow accent? The concept is silly, and you could only pass it off in a serious film to those who knew no better. Having just seen the film, I am happy to have British accents for the Russians. If the actors had been told to do Russian accents then they would have, it is hardly their fault. The alternative was Russian actors speaking English. In any case it's better to have British actors trying their best than some hot-headed American actor spitting and yelling his pro-Stalin lines across the screen. Joseph Fiennes and Ed Harris were both good, although I sensed slight German and Jewish stereotypes - unintentional but unfortunate nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 The love story was a little lame, but if you don't have a love story, you've probably got to have something like a "buddy film." That's how SPR got around managed to develop the characters, to the extent it did. It's sort of hard to have a buddy sniper film, I think. ------------------ WOOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Andrew Hedges wrote: > if you don't have a love story, you've probably got to have something like a "buddy film." Yup, male bonding. The centre of all the current controversy about female infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Originally posted by Germanboy: Trust CavScout to make a pointless comparison. Sigh. As opposed to your pointless complaints? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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