Using artillery -

[Phoenix]

Looking for input from others about what the selection and use of arty.

When and how you use it?

Offensive vs defensive use.

What caliber do you prefer and why?

Anything else you can think of that would be useful.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

[Mr. Clark]

I buy big arty... BIG arty...

I use Arty whenever I possibly can. I usually play the Allies, and I bomb the crap out of everything. I use artillery to weaken positions, divide enemy forces, immobilize tanks, and wreck enemy plans.

Incoming!

[Guest Offwhite]

If points are tight, I often buy mortars only. 81mm are great for hitting infantry in woods, and a good choice for smokescreens with all that ammo. The U.S. 4.2" is almost as strong as the 105, and the German 120mm is pretty effective too. They also seem to have smaller delays than the big tube arty like 105s or 155s, but I could be wrong on that.

[Maximus]

When and how you use it?

When you absolutely, positively have to kill every mother...er, opps, wrong weapon. That's was the AK-47. Actually, you use it when you're in a pinch and need some additional firepower on the enemy.

Offenisve vs Defensive

Either. Just use it whenever there is a grouping of enemy troops.

What caliber

81mm mortar is always a good support weapon. 105's even better, but lack the quantity.

Anything else they're useful for

Yeah, a nice 81mm up the wazoo always gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

[This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 01-08-2001).]

[Major Tom]

I like the heavy mortors. The 3" and 81mm Mortors have a fairly quick fire rate and can land powerful shells and ruin an entrenched force's day.

Lighter mortors, like the 60mm and 2" are VERY usefull in breaking up attacks. Enemy in the open, or advancing though trees can get nailed by these small shells. Group 3 of them together an you can litter an area with 60-70 HE shells in two minutes. The best part about them is that they are immediate.

Other uses for artillery is to use them for smoke cover fire. Most people don't use them this way, as, a big explosion gives an bombarder much more confidence than a wack of smoke. However, laying down a smokescreen can save your tanks from Long Range AT fire and infantry from HMG fire when advancing. It is also very good to use when counterattacking (just bombard the enemy position in smoke and move in your troops, just watch the chaos!).

[John Hough]

I realy consider there to be two sorts of arty, with completely different tactical purposes. For lack of better terms, let's call them Big Arty and Little Arty.

Big arty is from about 150mm/5.5 inches and up. The purpose of Big Arty is to kill things, plain and simple. It's reasonably good at carrying out this task alone, as long as you can get the shells to land on concentrations of enemy troops with the delay. Small arms can be used in conjunction with Big Arty, mainly to pin the enemy where the shells are going to land. Optimal engagement distance with Big Arty is probably 100+ meters from the main body of your troops.

Little Arty, the stuff 120mm and smaller, is mainly useful for supporting infantry. The rate of fire of the smaller stuff is high enough to keep up a sustained supressive effect on the enemy, allowing your unsupressed infantry to rack up kills with small arms fire. Optimal engagement distance is as close to your own troops as possible, either as a preparatory bombardment lifting just as your troops assault the enemy, or just in front of your troops as the enemy assaults your positions.

Rockets are a special case of Big Arty. Covering an area about 400 by 600 meters, they can't really be used effectively in conjunction with infantry. Still, the larger rockets can be very effective at killing the enemy, as long as you make sure to target them sufficiently far from your own troops.

-John

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sometimes i'd like to kick your f-ing head

but i guess you're just a human too

-EMBRACE, "SAID GUN"

[Guest Mikey D]

Remember how in Desert Storm (a decade ago now) the U.S. just bombed and bombed and bombed with everything they had for two straight weeks, then finished the actual groundwar in only about 100 hours?

Artillery and airpower.

[Bullethead]

When and how you use it?

"When" is before the enemy gets too close, or you get too close to him. "Too close" is a relative term. The lower limit is when you can't shell the enemy without taking some yourself. The upper limit depends on what the effective ranges of the enemy weapons are.

How is simple: always in mass. Bring a heavy volume of fire onto the target for long enough to do the desired job, whether this be mere suppression or utter destruction. Shifting your fire all over the map every turn is a waste of ammo. You need to keep hitting the same target until it's no longer a problem. How long that is depends on the size and type of arty employed.

Offensive vs defensive use.

Offensive: Artillery conquers, infantry occupies. 'Nuff said.

Defensive: Stock up on TRPs and put them in all the best enemy avenues of approach, as far forward as possible. Put snipers out to watch these TRPs. Then break up enemy attacks before they reach your main line.

If you have sufficient ammo, you can use curtain barrages on both attack and defense to screen a flank or deny the enemy the ability to shift forces flank to flank.

What caliber do you prefer and why?

You have to take into account many factors of each type of arty available: firepower per shell, number of shells that come with an FO, ROF during FFE, default impact pattern sizes, and delay time. In general, the smaller the tube, the more ammo you get. Mortars usually have about 1/2 the delay time and a MUCH higher ROF than guns, but slightly wider patterns. Rockets have VERY wide patterns, extremely high ROFs, extremely high firepower, and about the same delay as guns. German and Brit arty has a higher delay than corresponding US arty, and US arty has more ammo than Brits, who have more ammo than Germans. But besides all this, the choice in large measure boils down to what country I'm playing, because your choice of arty should be made in appreciation of what your cannonfodder--er, grunts and tanks--can and can't do.

The US has 60mm mortars all over the place. These things are excellent for rapid suppression of enemy MGs and infantry that suddenly start causing you problems. So you really don't need arty for this role. This allows you to focus on heavier, slower stuff. I find the 105 to be the best all-round, because it has plenty of ammo, a decent ROF, and is powerful enough to hurt everything on the map and even the map itself. Which is good because US tanks suck. So you have to consider US arty as an important anti-armor weapon.

The Brits aren't quite as well off. They have 2" mortars but these are pretty much a waste except against halftracks. This means you probably should get some 3" mortars to provide rapid suppression. But Brit tanks also suck, so you also need more powerful stuff for anti-armor use. And the best buy there is the 25pdr. It's not as powerful as a 105 but it will still hurt armor and it has a lot of ammo. The bigger stuff is generally too slow and doesn't have enough ammo to be really useful.

The Germans are the worst off for arty. They have no light mortars, their guns have very little ammo, and their rockets fire such wide patterns that you can't use them within 500m of your own line. Fortunately, their tanks can usually take care of themselves, allowing you to concentrate your arty on the anti-personnel role. For this, the 81mm seems to be the best thing they have. It has decent firepower, comes with a lot of ammo (although it uses it up very quickly) and has a short delay time.

Anything else you can think of that would be useful.

Don't use your biggest guns to lay smokescreens. You had to pay the price for their firepower so use it to kill the enemy. Make smoke with mortars--you get it faster and it works just as well. Meanwhile, your big guns are nuking the enemy behind the smoke.

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-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria.

[Phoenix]

Thanks Bullethead, that was most excellent!

[Guest MantaRay]

Big Arty is usually not among my purchases. Too costly and it seems when on attack, it is far too slow to help much, unless you have a certainty that the enemy is right there. The only time I find it to be really worth it is when the map is small and there are very few avenues of approach.

Little Arty is great. Mortars are not only effective in suppression, but the smoke screens can win the battle where w/o it you would mostly lose. They also fire MUCH faster and seem to be far more accurate.

I would use the bigger guns more if they were cheaper, and if ppl didnt consider it gamey to use 240mm guns enmasse. Man that is a mean mean killing machine.

Also, I NEVER count on my arty to kill troops. If it happens, it is a bonus, but I think the suppression and ability to rout troops out of fortified positions, is the real purpose and best use of arty.

Ray

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When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one."

Click now for shelter from the Peng thread

The Red Army of the Rugged Defense Group Ladder

[John Hough]

Big Arty does have its place, particularly against the ai, which bunches up its guys too much and reveals their locations far too early It's definitely more effective than Little Arty for the points cost for sheer damage-dealing power.

Rockets, particularly, I'm learning to respect, as they're really easy to target somewhere they'll do some good, and can deal a lot of damage quickly, even to properly spread out troops.

Another note, VT, if it's available, is clearly superior to regular arty, even considering the higher point cost.

Here's a link to the thread in which I revealed my arty damage test data, for those of you who missed it: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/013148.html

-John

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sometimes i'd like to kick your f-ing head

but i guess you're just a human too

-EMBRACE, "SAID GUN"

[tailz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix:

Looking for input from others about what the selection and use of arty.

When and how you use it?

Offensive vs defensive use.

What caliber do you prefer and why?

Anything else you can think of that would be useful.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I focus generally on smaller actions, so mortars are my usual choice, but having a soft spot for the Commonwealth, the ubiquitous (sp?) 25lber is also in my repetoire-it has provides a good bang for the buck, with a good ammount of ammo. (And I've also had good success with the Commonwealth 2in mortar... it's a damn handy addition to the OOB!)

Smoke or Fire for Effect as the situation warrants, but try to get your FO in a position where he can easily shift between trouble spots... ie, a green target line to minimize delays in shifting targets.

[Warmaker]

When/How & Offensively/Defensively?

On the offensive, if time permits send a split squad/scout cars ahead maybe with arty spotter riding along preferring not to start an engagement. Look for troop concentrations/ambush spots. Especially look for those ATG's if you possess armor. Another way offensively is to time(with practice) to hit enemy positions to suppress their fire as your forward elements advance. Do it right to lift the artillery fire as your forward infantry units close to conduct close assaults and armor just behind to lend direct fire support. Proper use of arty can save you lots of casualties on the offensive.

Defensively use it to break up/stall an advance. To me this becomes vitally important if your opponent(human/AI)is properly sending infantry to advance along with his armor nearby. If they're brave enough due to success they'll send 'em riding on back of tanks/halftracks to exploit a break in your defense. Let them bumble in to a kill zone(crossfires of ATG's and MG42 fire, all hidden to begin with). If you time it JUST right, your artillery should come down on top of them as they enter your kill zone and your direct fire weapons start the bloodletting. Your arty won't likely destroy any medium/hvy armor in the killzone but it will button them up or immobilize them for easy pickings for your ATG's/Panzerschrecks/Bazookas. For me the important thing is to kill off/pin their escorting infantry so they can't spot out your defenses as quickly since they're just worried about the arty fire and seeking cover. Add to this raking MG fire and it becomes beautiful. Mortars are quite efficient (cost/speed/#rounds) for this but judicous use of heavy arty like 150mm/big rockets adds spectacular results for the defender.

Preferences in caliber? 81mm mortars for most tasks since they're dirt cheap. Big artillery, I don't skimp. I go all the way and get the 150mm/155mm or some heavy rockets. Big arty has less rounds but they're sure to pin infantry and inflict casualties. I've had some destroy Shermans from some spectacular hits. It really was bad for the infantry riding them.

[Guest tero]

In attack: preparatory barrages on suspected enemy emplacements, "annihilation barrage" on spotted units. NOTE: if you have only sound contacts or you just lost LOS on the target just point that way and let it rip. I have found the scatter of the shells tend to provide better results if you aim slightly off target. Reason: pure statistics. The actual aim point gets less hits than the surrounding areas.

Whenever possible use the trees to amplify the effects of the fire.

In defence: TRP, TRP, TRP And remember to place them intelligently.

Both: big is good but there are times when 80+ 81mm shells are more usefull than 10+ 14"

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

I play the Brits and I favour 4.2" mortars as fast, all round artillery. You can use them for smoke, you can take down buildings and you can immobilise/kill medium tanks, and kill infantry or AT guns. The only thing they won't do (unles you're very lucky) is kill Panther or Tigers.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Germans, use mortars. The 81s are fine, but it can be nice to have the punch of the 120s. Use them mid to late, when the enemy is bunching up to bring firepower to bear on your key positions (you did choose key positions he couldn't hit from the entire map, right?) It is pointless to fire on spread out units or units that can easily move off, and recover from morale breaks. You want a bunched up target that has been stopped by your own guys.

Another way they often wind up paying off exploits a common, predictable attacker's approach. Human players love to avoid open ground and take the covered approach, at that is almost always woods, and it strips the tanks off of the infantry. Then they meet airburst mortars, panic, and SMG-armed reserves may be able to rush them in terrain where all shooting is point-blank. Nothing is bloodier when it works.

For the Americans, I like the 81mm still for similar uses and for masking smoke. But on the attack I like have some of the heavier stuff too, because 81mm doesn't do buildings or even foxholes or gun positions very effectively. It is not a matter of trying to destroy tanks, but of being able to knock out common, identified defensive positions that cannot or will not move. 105s are fine for those roles. Be careful with the length of the fire missions with the 105s, though. You usually only need the first 2 minutes of firing, at most.

[Graymane]

====================

When and how you use it?

Offensive vs defensive use.

What caliber do you prefer and why?

Anything else you can think of that would be useful.

====================

1. Depends on the situation. Terrain, enemy force composition, friendly force composition and mission.

Generally, the bigger the caliber, the less accurate and less timely it will fall. This means that you will need FOs in LOS more often. You may also need vet FOs to reduce times.

You have rockets, mortars and arty pieces. You can have either DF game pieces or spotters. It is almost always the case that you want spotters. Spotters have the advantage of good foot speed and fairly easy to hide. They also have the advantage of using the commander to help spot.

The terrain, mission and force compositions will work together to determine what you need. For wooded areas and open spaces with little cover, 81mm and below are generally sufficient against infantry and light vehicles. For pillboxes, bunkers, buildings and towns, larger calibers will be needed. For wooded areas, allied VT arty is wicked and effective.

The mission will dictate how many points you can spend on arty. It is usually more effective to buy more smaller calibers than fewer larger calibers. This allows you to both concentrate fire on an area but leaves your options open for firing other locations at the same time.

Arty on the offense: Use it in 3 modes. First mode is supression. This is useful against smaller pockets of resistence along your advance. You can use indirect fire here. The purpose is to keep the enemy's head down so that you can advance your infantry to more advantageous spots. Smaller calibers that fire more often are best here.

Second mode is smoke. This is most useful when you need to provide cover for an advance. Accuracy is not as critical and you want to cover a wider frontage than is possible with suppresive HE fire. Your troops may also be close so you don't want to hit them with HE. Therefore, you use smoke near the enemy between your movement force and them. Any caliber works well here. The downside of smoke is it uses A LOT of rounds.

Third mode is killer mode. You want to kill the target, either by burning the buildings or directly hitting troops. In this role, you need a lot more arty than usual. You will be using it instead of infantry or armor to kill the target. You need your on map arty or FOs in LOS of the target area or you will need target reference points on the target area. You should prep the objective for 2-3 rounds and then call off arty and attack with troops and/or armor.

Since I tend toward smaller size engagements, I tend to have less arty and I use it most often in the suppression or smoke role and use my troops to kill the enemy.

Arty on the defense: This is far more dependent on force compositions. If the attack is mostly armor, than arty is less useful and your points may be better spent on AT or engineering obstacles. Against infantry, you will probably want at least 2-3 TRPs. Put your spotters in LOS or use TRPs on reverse slope assembly areas before your defensive positions. You will need some type of forward OP/LP to tell when the enemy is assembling. Save 1-2 arty pieces for final fires on your own positions. Since your troops will be dug in, they will survive better than the attacker. On defense, if you have enough TRPs, you can afford to leave your spotters in safer locations. Against mounted infantry, put TRPs along likely Avenues of Approach and force the infantry to dismount.

Just one last tip. On some maps, it is VERY obvious where spotters are going to be and possibly also troop concentrations. On these open terrain maps, it is more important to hit first as your opponent may pre-empt you. If he hits your spotter locations, you can very well lose all your arty. Therefore, keep it spread it out, even at the cost of going to indirect fires.

One final pointer. Don't leave foot troops in the same spot for more than 2 turns if at all possible, even on the defense. During setup, split your infantry into teams to get more foxholes. Put one set of teams in your best defensive positions and the other set in secondary positions. On the first turn or so, link up the teams. The terrain will dictate where, but keep them well spread out. This will reduce the losses you take to arty fire. There is no way your opponent will be able to shift fires quickly enough to kill all your infantry if you keep them moving during the arty prep phases.

[This message has been edited by Graymane (edited 01-10-2001).]

[Jeff Heidman]

One thing I have learned is to be patient.

You have your spotter, and you want to use him, but do not use him too quickly, especially against humans.

I cannot think how many times I could ahve changed the outcome of a game if I still had some artillery in the mid to late game. But I generally try to use it on the first decent target I see.

It won't spoil. Most of the time it can be devastating if used late in the game to break up that last enemy push to the objective, or to pound the objective prior to your last push. Enemy troops tend to bunch up as the game goes on, use that against them.

Jeff Heidman

[deanco]

Man there is some really cool info here. I just wanna thank everyone for contributing.

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DeanCo--

CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/

so many games...so little time

[Guest ACTOR]

Just remember one things about rockets....They land wherever the hell they want! YES that includes on your own troops, so make sure you target them a good distance from your troops 500+ meters is good.

I also truly enjoy the VT arty to devastate the ground pounders.