wadepm Posted July 21, 2001 Share Posted July 21, 2001 First, I have read all (well most) of the posts about units in CM doing crazy things and I understand that stuff happens in war that can't be explained, etc, etc. However, in a couple of recent games I have had my armor do weird things that I think are more of a problem with the game engine, perhaps. Case 1: 2 Stuarts stalking a Hetzer. One Stuart comes upon the Hetzer in some scattered trees, and he is looking right at me. Next turn I order the Stuart to reverse out of harms way. As I look at the movie the Stuart reverses no problem, Hetzer out of sight, no problem. Then the Stuart spots an infantry squad of in the distance and starts to advance on it thus coming back into the Hetzer's LOS and gets whacked, needless to say. This was a Crack unit, BTW. It would seem that, without other units spotting the Hetzer the Stuart "forgot" about it. Units don't have any memory in CM, I guess. Case 2: My PzJg IV/70 comes upon an M10, open terrain. The IV/70 keeps to it's ordered movement path but also tries to slew the gun around to get a shot off. Of course, the 70 has a limited traverse so he can't quite get it lined up, but instead of stopping and rotating (only needed another 10 degrees or so) he keeps merrily along and gets whacked, on the M10's SECOND shot! This was a Veteran unit. The movement orders must have come from Hitler himself! Case 4: My Hetzer (maybe it's that German armor sucks) loses its commander to a sniper or something and buttons up but still moves forward to line up a beautiful rear shot on a Chaffee from about 40 yds. Or so I thought. After waiting about 10-15 seconds to shoot it decides that a second Chaffee 90 degrees right and about a 150 yds away is a BETTER target. It gets the kill but the first Chaffee escapes. This was a Crack unit. If they are buttoned up, without a commander, how do they even SEE the second Chaffee. Maybe it was perceived as a greater threat but they could still have easily taken the first shot and then turned. The second Chaffee was engaged with other units and wasn't in a position to fire on the Hetzer, at least not right away. Your comments are appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco QNS Posted July 21, 2001 Share Posted July 21, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Case 1: 2 Stuarts stalking a Hetzer. (..//..)...the Stuart reverses no problem, Hetzer out of sight, no problem. Then the Stuart spots an infantry squad of in the distance and starts to advance on it...(..//..)This was a Crack unit, BTW.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well. You wanted it Crack for something, no? Obviously, its Fastness conduces to Over-eagerness. As in "Real Life" . In the moment you concede/promote freedom to take decisitions, you must consider that they can be disastrous. IMO, a Green one will have simply machine-gunned the infantry from cover (and the Crack/AI "decided" to put in use the bow MG, too. On the memory matter, can´t say: Did the Hetzer contact lowered to the flag? If so, ... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Case 2: My PzJg IV/70 comes upon an M10, open terrain.(..//..)The movement orders must have come from Hitler himself! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hummm. What movement order did YOU give it? Was that JgPz HUNTING or MOVING/FAST-MOVING -as I think-? If the second is the answer, well, it´s explained in itself: moving overrruled engaging. That was your order, and it fulfilled it. ((Lesson to write on the notebook: When there is a possibility of CONTACT!, always HUNT. Case 3 ??? Well, I assume it is explained by itself. Very well, keep it short! And easy to answer -I love socratic methods- <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Case 4: My Hetzer (..//..)After waiting about 10-15 seconds to shoot it decides that a second Chaffee 90 degrees right and about a 150 yds away is a BETTER target. It gets the kill but the first Chaffee escapes. This was a Crack unit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It killed it, a possibly more menacing unit, and you are ranting (and blaspheming, even! ). See Case 1 on Crack/AI Was it with a first shot, too? Do you think it must have killed both them -and their crews- with the remote-MG in order to not deplete gun-ammo? On the issue of Spotting, make a search on Relative/Absolute Spotting and be patient. We will have to wait until CM II code-rewrite. My two pesetas. (next year, they will be useless, anyway) Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted July 22, 2001 Author Share Posted July 22, 2001 Paco, thanks for the "answers" but... When did being a crack unit mean you are on crack? The Stuart advanced on the infantry in the same turn they backed away from the Hetzer. I gave the iv/70 a move order. However, since it tried to turn the gun it obviously wanted to do something useful. In this case the AI has to take over, just as the crew would in real life! In Case 3 I was expecting the crew of the Hetzer to leave the vehicle and overcome the crews of both Chaffees with their bare hands after cutting through the side armor with a can opener! Any (more) serious responses would be also welcome.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wadepm: When did being a crack unit mean you are on crack? The Stuart advanced on the infantry in the same turn they backed away from the Hetzer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You say it "advanced" on the infantry. Meaning it drove towards them? If so, was this a movement order you gave it? If not, it could be a bug. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I gave the iv/70 a move order. However, since it tried to turn the gun it obviously wanted to do something useful. In this case the AI has to take over, just as the crew would in real life!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nothing wrong here. When moving with a Move or Move Fast command a vehicle will fire at targets of opportunity if it gets the chance, but it will not stop or otherwise alter it's movement path to do so. That's what the Hunt command does. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In Case 3 I was expecting the crew of the Hetzer to leave the vehicle and overcome the crews of both Chaffees with their bare hands after cutting through the side armor with a can opener!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It doesn't sound like the Chaffee that got away was posing much of a threat either. The fact that it had just had its TC killed and was therefore coming out of a shocked state likely had something to do with it. Not a big deal IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted July 22, 2001 Author Share Posted July 22, 2001 Thanks man... In the Case 1 I had given no further orders to the Stuart and it started moving on its own. In Case 2, I have seen tanks with a move order take shots, even if they had to stop and turn to do it. It was just weird to see the gun move to shoot but not the tank or should I say tank destroyer, to be correct... In Case 3 it had been a couple of minutes since the commander was killed and they had advanced a couple of hundred yards to get the rear shot position. Mine main problem was how they spotted the other Chaffee in the first place. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 Well the way I have learned to deal with strange behavior is to learn what does what under certain circumstances and then just don't do things which would invoke such behavior. But sometimes you can't help it anyway. So basically just learn the game and how things work then you'll know what to do and what not to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 Case 1, the Hetzer probably advanced back into LOS ahead of your Stuart. When an AFV is facing an enemy that can kill it, that it can't kill from that angle, it will attempt to evade by movement (or pop smoke if it can, or both). That is probably what happened. Such "panic moves" override the orders given; sometimes they will get a tank out of a tight spot, sometimes not. It only looked like it was going after the infantry - it was really trying to get away from the immediate line the Hetzer was pointing along, but failed. Case 2, your Jadg probably just wasn't "hunting". An AFV with hunt will stop and turn to kill a target, but one moving fast will not. As somebody already pointed out. Case 4, first off it did kill a target, and second off you say it lost the TC. AFVs that lose the TC are often "shocked" for a few tens of seconds, and unable to fire. That reflects the crew rearranging their tasks, who gives the orders, trying to attend to the guy hit, etc. For a brief period - and sometimes quite some time with low quality crews (not your case obviously) - the AFV will not function "on all cylinders", as it were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wadepm: In Case 2, I have seen tanks with a move order take shots, even if they had to stop and turn to do it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are sure about that? I certainly have never seen that and AFAIK the Move command is not supposed to allow that. So if you really did see a tank with a Move order abort its move to stop and shoot, that would be a bug. Or more likely, you gave it a hunt order on accident. [ 07-22-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Carrot Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 If it was a tank then it had a turret surely. Then it would not need to stop to shoot anything, it would just rotate the turret to engage any T.o.O. Well thats my idea anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco QNS Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When did being a crack unit mean you are on crack? The Stuart advanced on the infantry in the same turn they backed away from the Hetzer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I will cite the CMBO Manual, page 78: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"CRACK The best veteran soldiers achieve this level.Able to fight independently and overcome superior forces.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Please, tell us to what amount you ordered it to Reverse: Near commander´s defilade? Full defilade? Far away back than defilade? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In the Case 1 I had given no further orders to the Stuart and it started moving on its own.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tactical AI give that new order. I repeat: a)While backing your Stuart saw enemy infantry and engaged it. The Hetzer contact faded and was dismissed; b1)While been in full defilade respect the Hetzer, your Stuart was able to shoot at the infantry (-which was flanking you, neh?-) with its gun and coax MG (Did the AA MG was ammo depleted? -that is my guess-), and then advanced to secure the kill with its bow MG; b2)or the enemy infantry contact didn´t fade when the Stuart finished its retrograde movement. Then -as a Crack unit- it independently advanced to attack it. That is the Tactical AI (TAI) in CMBO. Live with it -or die with it-, as Maximus recomends: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>learn what does what under certain circumstances and then just don't do things which would invoke such behavior. But sometimes you can't help it anyway. So basically just learn the game and how things work then you'll know what to do and what not to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In other words, don´t fall into: "Sea lo que Dios quiera" -spanish- (God´s will be done) "Insch Allah" -arabic- (IDEM) "Nischevo, nischevo" -russian- (Nothing, nothing...) and so other fatalistic thinking in all continents, You must know your men/women, even if they are virtual ones. (IIRC Mr Tzu wroted something about this: "He who knows his own reality, but ignores the enemy´s ...) IRL it happens constantly... ((edited to remove the null in bold; and re-edited to begin a cite by Sun Tzu)) [ 07-22-2001: Message edited by: Paco QNS ] [ 07-22-2001: Message edited by: Paco QNS ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted July 22, 2001 Author Share Posted July 22, 2001 JasonC, thanks for the info, but....as always. Case 1: The Hetzer was in exactly the same position as it was when the Stuart backed away. The time interval from when the Stuart completed the reverse move and then started advancing was about 10 seconds. I think the new code for relative spotting will fix this problem. Case 2: The Jadg tried to move the gun so the AI did spot the threat and deal with it but somehow couldn't simultaneously override the move command. A tank would have fired but the TD couldn't. I think this is a problem, but in future, I will take it into account when moving TDs without turrets. Case 4: It had been a couple of minutes and the Hetzer had advanced quite a ways in the "shocked" condition. I guess the driver could just keep on going while the rest of the crew sorted things out. And when the other Chaffee showed up the driver saw it and decided to swing around, absent orders from the shocked rest of the crew. I'll believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen-x87H Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 I had a KT once fighting a Sherman at 600 meters. The Sherman dropped smoke. The KT decided to turn towards infantry and the next turn the Sherman got a side turret penetration eventhough the KT was fighting the Sherman not more than 1 min ago. I hope they add a bit of memory to Armor in the next version because it is kind of funny that the crew just decided to turn 90 degrees to an enemy tank to engage some infantry eventhough my SS squads were working them into the ground. Like the tank just disappeard into thin air. Gen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted July 22, 2001 Author Share Posted July 22, 2001 Relative spotting, I imagine, will require that the information known to each individual unit will need to be kept track of separately. This should also fix the amnesia problem. But we are going to have to wait awhile from the sound of it. Until then we must remember that our troops have this little problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted July 22, 2001 Share Posted July 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen-x87H: I had a KT once fighting a Sherman at 600 meters. The Sherman dropped smoke. The KT decided to turn towards infantry and the next turn the Sherman got a side turret penetration eventhough the KT was fighting the Sherman not more than 1 min ago. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Serves you right for buying a KT. You would have been much better of with two normal tanks. You know, not putting all your eggs in one basket and all that. --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 If your tank crews are doing Goofy stuff do they make a sound like "HYUCK, HYUCK, HYUCK" when they nail enemy units? Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: If your tank crews are doing Goofy stuff do they make a sound like "HYUCK, HYUCK, HYUCK" when they nail enemy units? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Do the mod and I promise to install it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer: Do the mod and I promise to install it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If only I were so talented. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 re: Case 1 - I've seen this sort of thing happen every now and again. I just chalk it up to curiosity, or something. In a PBEM a while back I know I ordered a Panther to STOP between 2 houses I had infantry in. The Panther stopped for a click or so and then drove forward. A PIAT team in the woods a hundred meters ahead fired at the Panther and that was that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 There is a bug in CM that will occasionally cause units to continue moving past where their movement command ends for no apparent reason. I've only seen it happen twice myself, and only to infantry, though I have heard of at least one case of a tank doing it. I've never heard of it actually plotting a whole movement order entirely on its own, but I suppose it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B: ...I've never heard of it actually plotting a whole movement order entirely on its own, but I suppose it's possible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IF you drop a movement order too close to some impassable terrain, or the line goes through impassable terrain the computer Tac AI makes some extra movement orders. I've seen that a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 23, 2001 Share Posted July 23, 2001 No, this is something quite different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Carrot Posted July 24, 2001 Share Posted July 24, 2001 Infantry will contnue moving if there is not enough room in their current location. AFAIK it happens in all terran types ie buildings, forests, foxholes etc. This might explain your 'problem'. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts