Scipio Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 I ordered my 75mm Howitzer to fire on a tank from 200m distance. They had 30+ HE and 6 AT shells. They were able to fire 3 shells and made one hit on the Panther before they were taken out by the Panther. Now my question: WHY DO THESE IDIOTS FIRE WITH HE SHELLS ON A TANK WHEN THEY HAVE AT AMUNITION ????????????????????????????????????? ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club [This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 03-22-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 A bit different problem then the one I have now and then. Same question though. I order a Stug to fire on infantry. Target them, click use main gun and the Stug fires smoke rounds at them until they are gone. Then fires its HE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 I have noticed that if I order my armor to fire at infantry inside a building the armor will fire all its smoke before firing any HE. The target is usually obscured by then and can get away safely. To address Scipio's question: It may havesomething to do with the number of HE rounds relative to the available AP rounds. The AI may be conserving AP rounds (for what I don't know.) I recall a thread on this about a month ago where someone ran some tests and found out that armor would not fire tungsten until the number of regular AP rounds had been reduced to a certain number. The same thing may be going on with AT guns and their use of HE and AP rounds. I don't remember if BTS commented on this. [This message has been edited by Pvt. Ryan (edited 03-22-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Well, the answer is simple. That 75mm howitzer's AP rounds had about as much chance of penetrating the panther as I have of penetrating Pamela Anderson. Those HE rounds have a much better chance of immobilizing, disarming or otherwise disabling the beast. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Originally posted by wwb_99: Well, the answer is simple. That 75mm howitzer's AP rounds had about as much chance of penetrating the panther as I have of penetrating Pamela Anderson. LOL! Thats a good one WWB! ------------------ "Fear is for the enemy... Fear and Bullets." "They didn't want to come... but I told em, by jeepers, it was an order." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rex_Bellator Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Save your energy wwb_99, she wasn't that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted March 22, 2001 Author Share Posted March 22, 2001 Originally posted by wwb_99: Well, the answer is simple. That 75mm howitzer's AP rounds had about as much chance of penetrating the panther as I have of penetrating Pamela Anderson. Those HE rounds have a much better chance of immobilizing, disarming or otherwise disabling the beast. WWB I have no idea what caliber is necessary to penetrate Pamela Anderson, but you better check the weapon stats for the 75mm Howitzer again: the AP sheels can penetrate up to 89 mm, the HE only a third of it. That's not good enough for the front turret, but it's good enough for the sides...and it don't explain why they don't try it. I would say : "BTS, we got a problem." ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club [This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 03-22-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Well, 89mm is at 100m, not 200m and those slow 75mm rounds lose penetration fast. Also, you have to remember the slope of the panther's armor as well, which makes it nearly impenitrable. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Originally posted by Scipio: I have no idea what caliber is necessary to penetrate Pamela Drunken, burned out, tatooed heavy metal drummer should be able to from any angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted March 22, 2001 Author Share Posted March 22, 2001 Originally posted by wwb_99: Well, 89mm is at 100m, not 200m and those slow 75mm rounds lose penetration fast. Also, you have to remember the slope of the panther's armor as well, which makes it nearly impenitrable. WWB Hollow charges have the same penetration value at all ranges. And it still don't explain why the gunners don't try it. For what want they spare up the AP ammo? Halftracks? BTS, maybe you can clear this up?! ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Well, for hollow charges, the thing that matters most is angle. Was this panther perpindicular to the gun, or on a slant of some sort. Not to mention that curved manlet, hard to get a flat surface on that thing. And thanks for the info on penetrating Pamela. I will grow my hair and get some tattoos. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 The problem isn't specific for the 75mm gun. I've noticed it for all HE/HC equipped guns/vehicles during the latest patches. Earlier it was no sweat. I used Priests to knock out Hetzers frontally and KTs from the flank. Lately I've never seen HC being fired until the 5th or later round... Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amedeo Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 The only rational explaination I see for not to fire first their few HC/APCR whathever rounds is because they are trying to find the range with other cheap ammunitions to avoid hitting the target at, say, the fourth attempt when they already spent all the good rounds bracketing. Did anyone notice if they all start to use the 'good' ammo after the hit percentage is more than a 'threshold' value? Regards, Amedeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Urhhh. Penetrating Pamela BAD. One penetration and she would deflate. Does it count as hollow charge or discarding sabot? ------------------ "Woof!Woof!" That's my other dog impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Originally posted by Amedeo: Did anyone notice if they all start to use the 'good' ammo after the hit percentage is more than a 'threshold' value?Well, I had a CS Cromwell shoot at least ten consecutive HE hits on a JT before it even started consider using HC... Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 I've had Sherman 105s fire HE at a Panther rather than hollow core in the Valley of Trouble demo--hard to figure out why this would happen. The 1.12 upgrade is supposed to lead to greater use of Tungsten. Could this also improve use of other AP rounds? All in all, Allies with a side shot on a Panther (or Tiger) often have only one or two chances to kill it--then they're dead. Real Allied gunners would certainly know this and, I assume, always use their best AP ammo in such a situation--better to waste an AP round than lose your tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Consider if the tank is buttoned up or not. An HE round impacting the tank tends to kill the TC or button them up right quick. A buttoned up Panther is quite a bit easier to bushwack then one where the TC is up and looking around, and a shocked Panther with a dead TC is like a present being served up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Originally posted by CombinedArms: The 1.12 upgrade is supposed to lead to greater use of Tungsten. Could this also improve use of other AP rounds?AFAIK it has done the opposite. Tungsten use is improved, use of Hollow charge is degraded... Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 I am pleased to report that in a current PBEM both my self-propelled guns have now fired their allotted issues of smoke rounds at the enemy infantry. My advance may now commence with 75mm gun support! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted March 23, 2001 Author Share Posted March 23, 2001 The saga continues: Another PBEM : I order a 76mm AT to take out a Panther(?) from 450m. The first shot (AP) was missed, the second broke up. At this point, the leader of the gun crew would IMO shout 'Damn, we need something stronger for this, load tungsten!'. Instead they fire 4 more rounds of AP - with 3 direct, but ineffective hits!!! This is no fun. One more scene : a german Armored car is surrounded by 4 half-squads in close range. They throw 6-8 handgrenades on it, most of them explode on or close to the AC. Okay, maybe I don't must expect that the car is taken out...but why it's not immobilzed with a half dozen grenades? Were the wheels made of steel, too? ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted March 25, 2001 Author Share Posted March 25, 2001 How the Panther vs 76mm AT ended. The 76mm placed one more hit with an AP shell which broke up, then was taken out by the Panthers first shot. That's very annoying BTS, would be nice if you have a serious talk with all gun crews. ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club [This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 03-25-2001).] [This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 03-25-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted March 25, 2001 Share Posted March 25, 2001 Originally posted by Scipio: The saga continues: One more scene : a german Armored car is surrounded by 4 half-squads in close range. They throw 6-8 handgrenades on it, most of them explode on or close to the AC. Okay, maybe I don't must expect that the car is taken out...but why it's not immobilzed with a half dozen grenades? Were the wheels made of steel, too? The hand grenade throwing graphic is supposed to represent a close assault attempt. Each little grenade is not actually a grenade really, just a visual to let you know something is going on. It can be anything from an actual grenade being thrown, to sticking a wad of mud down the gun tube, all sorts of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted March 25, 2001 Author Share Posted March 25, 2001 Originally posted by Dirtweasle: The hand grenade throwing graphic is supposed to represent a close assault attempt. Each little grenade is not actually a grenade really, just a visual to let you know something is going on. It can be anything from an actual grenade being thrown, to sticking a wad of mud down the gun tube, all sorts of things. Okay, but we still have the ammo problem. ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted March 25, 2001 Share Posted March 25, 2001 Intresting enough how all these discussions about shell usage are all against the Germans. Allied players got what they wanted with more use of tungsten and still want more tungsten use. The 75mm gun in question probably knew it would not have a chance to penetrate (it's a low-velocity 75mm howitzer, designed to lob shells over stuff in an arc remember?) and used 75mm he so as to have a greater chance to immobilize the tank. I do think that tungsten use should not be 100% automatic every time even though a tank or gun has the shells, no matter what the circumstances. There has to be *some* randomness to it. I'm not sure about the smoke shell mis-usage. I've seen it but I have not seen it happen often enough to say its a major problem (imho) that can not be explained by other factors. Sherman 105s shouldn't be getting any tungsten until very late (if at all), as the initial meager tungsten production was alloted to the TD units, not inf support tanks. I think halftracks vs infantry are almost dead on correct right now. They don't instantly die from a few infantry nearby with no chance like they used to. Maybe we can just use the excuse allied players use when german players complain their units don't do what they thought they should: "maybe your units were too scared." -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted March 25, 2001 Author Share Posted March 25, 2001 Originally posted by Tiger: Intresting enough how all these discussions about shell usage are all against the Germans. Allied players got what they wanted with more use of tungsten and still want more tungsten use. The 75mm gun in question probably knew it would not have a chance to penetrate (it's a low-velocity 75mm howitzer, designed to lob shells over stuff in an arc remember?) and used 75mm he so as to have a greater chance to immobilize the tank. I do think that tungsten use should not be 100% automatic every time even though a tank or gun has the shells, no matter what the circumstances. There has to be *some* randomness to it. I'm not sure about the smoke shell mis-usage. I've seen it but I have not seen it happen often enough to say its a major problem (imho) that can not be explained by other factors. Sherman 105s shouldn't be getting any tungsten until very late (if at all), as the initial meager tungsten production was alloted to the TD units, not inf support tanks. I think halftracks vs infantry are almost dead on correct right now. They don't instantly die from a few infantry nearby with no chance like they used to. Maybe we can just use the excuse allied players use when german players complain their units don't do what they thought they should: "maybe your units were too scared." -John Good points, BUT - concerning the 76mm AT - I guess after one or two or maybe three unsuccessfull attempts to take out a tank with normal AP it's really time to try a tungsten-shell. ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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