Maximus Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 I was just wondering as I loaded up the "'Nam Mission" scenario while using the Normandy terrain, why can't we do a 'NAM conversion? I was thinking that we could do VC uniforms for either the GJ or Volksturm. NVA uniforms for either the SS or FJ. SEAL/Marine uniforms for the US Airborne and US Army for US Army. And then maybe ARVN uniforms for the Brit and then Green Berets for UK Airborne. Then for terrain, we would need some high tropical jungle canapy trees for "tall pines" and then smaller pine tree types for the fall trees, but make the fall tree bases for summer. And then rice patties for the marsh tile. Brush could be mud areas or something else. And then for small arms mods, M1919 goes to M60s, M1 Garands go to M16s, Thompsons got to M79 "Bloop Guns" or Shotguns, Kar 98K's to AK47s and so forth. Houses go to thatched huts. Anybody think that would be cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 It would be kinda sorta cool. The M79 would have to be simulated by giving extra gammon bombs or something similar (Or making the bazooka teams bloop gunners) Use the Super Pershings as M48 tanks and give the NVA tons of p-shreck teams to simulate the B40 gunners? The NVA would get oodles of on map mortars and mortar spotters. US would get lots of air support and 105/155mm arty You know, it would not be so bad...Most battles would be mostly all infantry slugging matches, but that is not a bad thing. Marshes would make nice rice paddies... We could work on that, maybe there's some other people interested in a Vietnam conversion. Gyrene [ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Gyrene ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 20, 2001 Author Share Posted June 20, 2001 Yep you're right about the arty. Probably need to convert the walls and wooden bunkers to sandbags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Could replace the sound files for aircraft with either jet sounds or chopper sounds. The sound files would be the easiest. Could even simulate pre american involvement already having the french in the game. Paratroops squads could become Seals, and Green Beret. Polish could be Montagnards, Polish airborne could be ROK mercenaries, English troops could be Aussies so on and so forth. You could really bring it down to squad level by using sharpshooters as the troops. One man equals one man except for HQs of course. with alittle imagination it wouldn't be too bad. Man I really wish a company would come out with a good tactical Nam game, one that had the dedication and forethought and research that CM has. Mord [ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Mord ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Would need some simulated Elephant grass too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 I think it would be great but I couldn't help out or anything since I'm barely able to download and install mods but I sure could play the game. But yeah it would be really neat. Hope you guys do it. Would there be any VC tunnels and American gun ships in it do you suppose? How about river patrol boats? Don't forget booby traps on the trails. There would be jungle trails, wouldn't there? Man, the more I think about it the neater it sounds. Good luck if you do it and keep us posted - daily. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Icm1947 could be the POW's, we could abuse him and stuff. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunnee Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Good Idea, but the Volksturm as VC would never work. Volksturm can't go above regular, and the VC were crack guerrilla troops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Wheat fields (in the proper season - July?) might work for elephant grass. The French conversion would be easiest since their equipment would be almost universally WW2 vintage US. For the US conversion I would say for every squad there should also be an adjacent zook team to represent the proliferation of LAWs. No way to model the much-feared 12.7mm MG for the NVA though. Amtracs, Ontos, and M113s are also off the board as possibles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Amtracs and Ontos are way off. M113's might be subbed with one of the kangaroo variants? Good idea on the wheat/elephant grass Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armdchair Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 If anyone's interested, I've done a revised version of "Nam Mission" that I promised to send Spike but haven't had playtested yet. As far as using Volksturm for Viet Cong, it works just fine. The Viet Cong were, by and large, not crack troops; some Main Force guerrilla units might possibly qualify as well as some NVA regular troops. Most Viet Cong units were made up of local farmers and kids utilizing mines, booby traps and sniper fire to harass US infantry, not some kind of elite force of jungle warriors. In "Nam Mission", I used both Volksturm and Volksgrenadiers to portray Communist guerrilla forces. The two types of Axis forces are meant to duplicate the two types of Viet Cong forces: local VC units that operated close to their homes and hamlets, and the better-trained, better equipped Main Force VC units that operated provincially and regionally (although actually in the briefing for "Nam Mission" I described the distinction as being between Viet Cong guerrillas and North Vietnamese Army regulars). The main drawbacks in trying to portray infantry combat in Vietnam using CM are as I stated in the general briefing: "This is a crude attempt to replicate small unit combat in Vietnam. Crude because so much is missing: no helicopters, no air support, no tunnel or bunker complexes, no confusion of combatant/non-combatant; elements that more or less defined infantry combat in Vietnam." [ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Armdchair ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunnee Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Ok, they weren't supermen. What I meant by crack were determined units, utterly given to their task, that knew the land, and knew how to fight. These guys were farmers, but they knew the terrain and weather like the back of their hand. They knew how to move around without being seen, they knew how to shoot. Now my question is, do regular troops in CM possess this quality? NO. You must represent the capabilities of the VC guerrilla abstractly, much like the game itself does when dealing with the infinite variables of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty's Double Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Couldn't you represent the confusion of fighting under the jungle canopy by playing all games at night or in fog? That always seems to increase the mathem in the games I play. Now, where did I put that tin of Agent Orange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Fog is not a bad idea, but woods would probably work well enough. The names for the VC/NVA units would be simple... "Nguyen" Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.M.O.T. Dibbler Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Great idea! -ANders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boy_Recon Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Have BTS ever suggested when they're going to tackle the PTO? THat would solve a lot of Mod probs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armdchair Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Ok, Dunnee, I get where you're coming from. I wasn't trying to flame you. I was reacting to a phenomenon that you're obviously familiar with: where one side's abilities are exaggerated or derided ("supermen" or "dumb bastards"). When Allied troops in the Pacific realized the Japanese were not natural jungle fighters and that they could not only match them but excel against them in jungle warfare, the tide really began to turn. Vietnam, of course, was different. The Vietnamese had been practicing guerrilla warfare a good 20, 30 years before US troops entered the conflict. Longer than that if you count their historical tradition of guerilla warfare against invaders from other Asian nations. US military advisor John Paul Vann said (referring to the system of 13-month tours for GIs in Vietnam):" We didn't fight in Vietnam for 9 years. We fought for a year 9 times." Ultimately, the problem of trying to portray small-unit infantry combat in Vietnam comes down to whole political dimension of the conflict. The VC/NVA were obviously more motivated to fight in their own country than American forces overseas fighting a hotly-debated and hazily-defined conflict. Imagine a Nam scenario where two VC snipers hold off a US infantry company by utilizing a system of tunnels and spiderholes in and around a small village. The scenario ends when US troops disengage and call in an airstrike. The scenario is so lopsided and unbalanced due to the political nature of the war: where US forces were trying to keep their casualties down and VC forces were trying to inflict maximum casualties on US forces (even at the cost of their own lives). You're right - CM doesn't model the resourcefulness of guerilla fighters; but neither does it model the initiative of German lieutenants, NCOs and privates that German infantry was famous for in WWII;or for that matter, the doggedness, courage, leadership, etc. of Allied troops. AI is often unimaginative, which is why so many CM players prefer human opponents. Ideally, "Nam Mission" would be played in head-to-head competition so that the player representing the Communist forces could set ambushes, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted June 20, 2001 Author Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lcm1947: I think it would be great but I couldn't help out or anything since I'm barely able to download and install mods but I sure could play the game. But yeah it would be really neat. Hope you guys do it. Would there be any VC tunnels and American gun ships in it do you suppose? How about river patrol boats? Don't forget booby traps on the trails. There would be jungle trails, wouldn't there? Man, the more I think about it the neater it sounds. Good luck if you do it and keep us posted - daily. Please.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> lcm1947, You playing the same game the rest of us are? Why can you barely download and install mods? Slow modem or lack of know-how? VC tunnels, American Gunships, River Patrol Boats? Umm, we're still playig CMBO here. I don't think the Assualt Boat will be scary enough for a Gunboat. Jungle trails with booby traps could be represented with scattered trees and Anti-Personel mines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Babra wrote: The French conversion would be easiest since their equipment would be almost universally WW2 vintage US.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you quite sure about that? Maybe you know more than I do about lend-lease, but the French had their own weapons before the Second World War, which they used in the first couple of years, and continued to use afterwards. Indeed the Germans would have commandeered most of their armaments, but unless these were destroyed in the interim, the French would presumably have taken them back. The MAS 49 was the standard French rifle from 1949. To quote from Jane's Gun Recognition Guide, "This was adopted somewhat hurriedly in 1949 when the French Army was anxious to equip with a modern rifle instead of the collection of oddments which had survived the war". This suggests that they were indeed not using exclusively American small-arms, but a combination of their own, possibly German, and probably American and British as well. The MAT 49 submachinegun was adopted around the same time and, like the MAS 49, remained standard armament until the introduction of the FA MAS in 1980. The Chatellerault M1924/29 light machinegun was manufactured in the decade prior to the war, and remained in service until the 1950's. I have pictures of it, as well as the MAS 49 and MAT 49, in use in Indo-China. The current French GPMG, the AAT-F1, has been in production since 1952 (when it presumably replaced the M1924/29). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Hey Maximus. Yes I am playing the same game as everybody else and no my computer speed is fine since getting DSL, it's me that's slow when it comes to computers, that's all I meant. But anyway as far as my other idea's I was just spitting out some ideas I thought would be cool. I was thinking maybe a modder could just make a gun or something on the assault boats. Guess not. Still don't see why a modder couldn't make a shadow of a gunship instead of the planes we now see but since I know nothing about modding I just don't know. Oh well, cross off my idea's. But I still hope you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by boy_Recon: Have BTS ever suggested when they're going to tackle the PTO? THat would solve a lot of Mod probs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> All they will say is that Up to CM4 is WTO so who know whats after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Well, the French and S. Vietnamese did use cast-off U.S. armor. I suppose the U.S. side could have it reinforcements arrive anywhere they want on the map, representing air-cav. I'm trying to imagine how CM would do at constructing a firebase surrounded by rice paddies.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: Are you quite sure about that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry, I was referring to vehicular equipment. Chaffees, Greyhounds, M3 Halftracks et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bog Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Speaking of conversions.... Who is doing the Early War conversion and what has he done so far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Babra wrote: Sorry, I was referring to vehicular equipment. Chaffees, Greyhounds, M3 Halftracks et al.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That only just occurred to me when I read MikeyD's post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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