Sd Kfz 7/2 37 mm

[Mark IV]

Originally posted by Forever Babra:

I just tried a 1000 point defend QB against the A/I.

I've been trying the same, though 500 pts. on small maps. Unfortunately these results say more about the AI's ability to plan an attack than the supposed invincibility of AA trucks. So far, I'm not finding a big problem.

I lost two Sd Kfz 7/2 to small arms fire and one to a 'zook (under 100m) in 2 QBs. I also mixed in 20mm and 37mm stationary flaks.

The AI's Shermans fared badly, but it didn't move them very smartly. Same for the infantry, though they persevered into shooting range.

The stationary flaks are hard to spot, but get zapped when the infantry closes in. The AI has made no attempt to mortar or smoke the AAs.

So, I gave the AI the flaks, and I attacked (regular Ami inf.). Trucks killed, one set ablaze by infantry fire at just over 100m. Flaks blocked with 60mm smoke & suppressed by mortars and MGs, flanked by infantry.

I had only 1 M4A1, which killed one flak (while the 20mm was engaged from 2 sides by infantry) with the MG, and another in the same boat, next turn, with the Main Gun.

Never got the 'zooks close enough to try 'em out; didn't need 'em. The AI had a platoon of veteran infantry plus mines and barbed wire to keep me honest. I lost guys, but all the AA things folded under heavy fire once spotted. They are very vulnerable to 100m rifle fire.

I do think the stationary flaks are awfully resilient against infantry at ranges under 20m... grenades and 10 or so rifles seem to have trouble with 3 guys and a small cannon with a thin steel shield. Other than that impression, no problem found.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Schugger:

I also couldn't resist and set up a battle with the editor:

Axis had six 37mm AA vehicles and the Allies had four cal.50 MGs in heavy buildings, four MG Jeeps and four Shermans. Range was about 400 meters and the battle lasts for three rounds, guess who had won it.

I'm on tenderhooks sitting on the edge of my seat desperately hoping for an answer... please put me out of my misery.

Regards

Jim R.

[Schugger]

I hate to admit it; I played the Allies against the AI and got creamed by it pretty badly. All Shermans and Jeeps were knocked out and MG were running. Only two of the six AA vehicles were knocked out.

------------------

Turret down

Hull down

Track down

Pants down

[Mark IV]

That sounded fun so I tried it.

By turn 13:

6 dead Sd Kfz 7/2 (5 reg, 1 vet)

1 dead Sherman M4A1, 1 gun hit Sherm, 3 dead jeeps, 1 broken MG (all reg).

Small map, village with light trees. Firing commenced at 570m.

Only 1 AA blew up (tracked down at 60m). The rest were killed by tank MG fire or abandoned with continued near misses of HE.

3 of the Sd Kfz 7/2s maneuvered wildly, firing all the time. They were very difficult to hit with main gun rounds. The last one played hide-and-seek to the end.

Might have gone a little better if my tanks and jeeps hadn't been so determined to wipe out the fleeing crews...

[Agua]

Just ran into one of these things in a TCP/IP. It sure is bad news. Two shermans wasted who knows how many rounds on this thing. It apparently was feeling full of itself as it started to bum rush one of the shermans (it was at the end of the turn and my opponent was not directing this), at about 38 meters. The Sherman had been firing at this thing for most of a turn at this range and kept missing (I swear one of the shells looked like it just went through the thing).

Ultimately, during the flak monster's charge, the Sherman took it out, resulting in an explosion. The crew survived, unharmed.

As an aside, a sharpshooter had been catching hell from the flak monster and it he joined in with the Sherman; you could hear the "clink" of the shells landing on the ground. He must have felt like Captain Miller when that thing finally blew up.

[KiwiJoe]

Yeah they are gamey pieces of **** Just ask that no AA HTs be selected when playing against germans.

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

Most AP would go straight through [a soft vehicle] and not make any other damage than improved ventilation.

Depends. If an AP round fired into a soft vehicle strikes the engine, drive train, or fuel tank it will definitely reduce its utility.

Michael

[Dan Weaver]

Seems like everybody's made the same discovery I just did...

The other day I read that German units would frequently use mobile flak units to bolster infantry, so I bought a couple of 7/2s in one of the frequent battles I play against myself. The price was right and the 37mm gun seemed like it would be useful...

Useful isn't even the right word. Mobile death machine is more like it. A British rifle platoon engaged one at 150 yards and suffered 50% casualties for its trouble, without causing a single loss to the 7/2's crew. It wrecks light armor by virtue of its fast turret and high ROF, and usually gun-damages Shermans and Churchills. The 7/2 is basically the distilled essence of gamey, packaged into a 48-point bottle and delivered direct to your door.

What's more, they're fun to drive all over the battlefield in reverse.

[Mark IV]

They are useful. However, I'm getting tired of killing them just to prove they're not death machines. I didn't use any great finesse, although I advanced behind trees. Put lots of metal on 'em and they die. They're supposed to be lethal.

[KiwiJoe]

Mark IV - they ARE death machines when you consider their cost. "Putting lots of metal on em" as you suggest is most likey going to end up costing ou more than what the german player paid for AA HT. Like Ive metioned - they are pot-luck. You can take em out with mg fire at long range on occasion. The problem lies in trying to knock the sons of bitches out with tank fire. Even with 105mm its FRIGGIN hard. They shurg of near direct Sherman 75mm HE hits like crazy. Surely an "unarmoured" truck would be dead meat if it was anywhere near to HE explosions like that.

They are modelled badly and are gamey to use if you have read this thread.

[This message has been edited by KiwiJoe (edited 04-02-2001).]

[Forever Babra]

Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

Just ask that no AA HTs be selected when playing against germans.

Well, no more than one or two anyway. In the "test" I did, it was the sheer volume of metal that half a dozen of them could throw onto a single target that made them so lethal. Buildings would crumble just out of fright. Having one or two won't upset play balance I shouldn't think.

[grunto2]

Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

They are modelled badly and are gamey to use if your read this thread. .

i think that they do need to be remodelled.

andy

[M. Bates]

I used one in TCP/IP once. It killed two Shermans, and countless US infantry casualties: it took three turns of arty to kill it.

As my opponent said: "Unf**king believable!!"

[Pvt.Tom]

I just tested it out, platoon of US Infantry vs Sd Kfz 7/2 at 300m, one squad was routed in turn 1, turn 2 AAA Truck went up in flames no problem. I have one in a PBEM Game I am playing now, maybe it will impress me more in a real game.

Pvt.Tom

[pktaske]

Glad to see this thread revitalized...I've stopped using the trucks in an effort to give my opponents some chance of winning...or at least making a game of it..problem is that it is much too cheap a purchase...don't know if their combat effectiveness is modelled correctly or not but I tend to think these we're never intended as front line assault vehicles...and the real trick in working these things is to keep them as far back from the action as possible..and moving all the time...in my travels, I have noticed that 75mm+ static guns do counteract them very nicely but the truck has to be moved into their field of fire of course...most exp players won't let that happen...all in all however I'm really beginning to enjoy CM battles more representative of actual historical situations and less in the "I won another!" genre...I've lost to some very good very players and I've beaten some very good players...my ego's been stroked...now I want to really enjoy this game for what it's supposed to be.

[aka_tom_w]

This is a VERY intereseting thread.

I have been playing this game since the Beta Demo and I Playing the full version since it arrived when it was realeased last summer.

I usually play the Allies and have not found that Sd Kfz 7/2 37 mm to be that difficult to deal with. I routinely deal with all "nuisance" vehicles like that with the .50 cal HMG.

I have not used one as the Germans and never been stummped by one as the Allies?. Maybe I'm just lucky?

I have been STUMPED by Panthers that refuse to die, but that cheap little Sd Kfz 7/2 37 mm HT you are all so fond of has never been a unit that I could not deal with. Its not heavily aromoured? Its easy to spot and identify. Maybe I have not faced enough of them? I have never had to deal with more than one or two of them in a battle so that might be a factor.

oh well, its interesting to read how this unit is ALSO used in a "gamey" way because it is cheap and deadly.

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 04-02-2001).]

[aka_tom_w]

found this recently in another thread.

"Homba

Member

posted 04-02-2001 02:17 PM

I lost a 37mm single-gun flak truck to infantry fire at 200m+. I was firing HE at the infantry in a

woodline. Was surprised by this kill- all 8 of the crew survived the destruction of the gun.

H "

[Micheal Wittman]

Wow, there seems to be a crowd gathering.

In my humble opinion, are little AA unit that is being discussed at the moment, I like, ( I always play Axis ).

But for me they die just like anything else

would when shot at approprietly....

So's I do not feel there "SUPER" weapon.

------------------

"Is this thing loaded?"

[pritzl]

There is something very wierd going on with these flak vehicles. They can suffer catastrophic explosions and even still all eight guys climb out of the wreckage unscathed and ready for action.

HE rounds should be ripping these vehicles and their occupants to shreds. Instead, they shrug off all but direct hits. I just ran a scenario with 6 shermans versus 6 Sdkz 7 with 37mm guns. They were facing directly at each other (i.e. the german's guns were facing the wrong way) a few hundred hards apart on totally flat, featureless terrain. All 6 german vehicles were finally destroyed after 4 turns and the loss of 3 shermans, but not one of the flak vehicles lost a single crew member until after they bailed and were treated like regular infantry. That includes the one that brewed up in a spectacular explosion.

In this test, all actions were decided by the AI.

[pritzl]

I just tried the same experiment, only this time, I used all Sherman Jumbo (75mm) and took away all of their smoke and HE rounds. They engaged the Germans from 225 meters. Not one German vehicle was taken out with AP rounds. Five were destroyed by MG fire and the sixth survived until turn 5 when the germans surrendered. The last vehicle was still alive and blazing away right up to the end. It was in the open with 6 Shermans firing away with MG and 75mm AP rounds. As near as I could tell (and I checked very closely), an AP round never struck a german vehicle.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by pritzl:

I just tried the same experiment, only this time, I used all Sherman Jumbo (75mm) and took away all of their smoke and HE rounds. They engaged the Germans from 225 meters. Not one German vehicle was taken out with AP rounds. Five were destroyed by MG fire and the sixth survived until turn 5 when the germans surrendered. The last vehicle was still alive and blazing away right up to the end. It was in the open with 6 Shermans firing away with MG and 75mm AP rounds. As near as I could tell (and I checked very closely), an AP round never struck a german vehicle.

That's VERY interesting.

They can't be killed by AP rounds? Looks like more testing is required.

If the game is now final and there are no more revisions, or updates then this little (cheap) unit may soon appear in EVERY ladder game we play.

It sounds like if you are the Germans and you select this unit you may be accused of being gamey? That accusation really doesn't bother some folks and I guess there are other players who honestly don't know the difference. Anyway this unit seems to have some peculiarities about the way it is coded.

I wonder if Charles could have another look at why no AP rounds can kill it?

(I should test this myself perhaps before I rant about it)

I am now mostly just curious about this.

I "think" I have killed them before with .50 cal HMG fire, but I am not certian.

-tom w

[pritzl]

I've done more testing with those jumbos vs the SdKfz 7/2s. This time, I put in a slight rise so that all of the Jumbos are hull down thus removing their bow machine guns from the action. Of course, they could still fire their co-axial MG.

This battle lasted 8 turns. The fight occured at a range of 200 meters. Three of the German vehicles were knocked out by MG fire and the other 3 were taken out by AP rounds. However, it took a LOT of AP rounds to knock one out.

I'm starting to wonder if the problem is not the ammunition, but the size of the target. Could the data that's hard coded into the game have the SdKfz 7 be such a small target that it's nearly impossible to hit? This would also explain why HE is still more effective than AP rounds.

[Agua]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

I "think" I have killed them before with .50 cal HMG fire, but I am not certian.

-tom w

You have. .50 MG kills these things quick. I set up a test scenario with one .50 MG in the edge of the woods and one sdkfz at 150m in the open. In 4 trials, the sdkfz never lasted longer than 3 seconds.

[Mark IV]

Vehicle data from the game shows the Sherman with size 100, the SdKfz 7/2 at 120, if I recall correctly from this AM.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by pritzl:

I've done more testing with those jumbos vs the SdKfz 7/2s. This time, I put in a slight rise so that all of the Jumbos are hull down thus removing their bow machine guns from the action. Of course, they could still fire their co-axial MG.

This battle lasted 8 turns. The fight occured at a range of 200 meters. Three of the German vehicles were knocked out by MG fire and the other 3 were taken out by AP rounds. However, it took a LOT of AP rounds to knock one out.

I'm starting to wonder if the problem is not the ammunition, but the size of the target. Could the data that's hard coded into the game have the SdKfz 7 be such a small target that it's nearly impossible to hit? This would also explain why HE is still more effective than AP rounds.

I agree with this:

"Could the data that's hard coded into the game have the SdKfz 7 be such a small target that it's nearly impossible to hit?"

I just played one out with a Pershing and 3 Hellcats and 2 grey hounds and a company of infantry (about 2000 pts) against 2 puma and 10 Sd 7/2 37 mm and a company of mot Panzer Greandiers. (both sides had 3 reg HT's each)

I played as the Allies against the Axis AI.

I and the only thing that lasted more than 4-5 turns was the Pershing.

I got creamed, by all those 7 remaining Sd 7/2 37 mm's!!

They are leathal, and VERY hard to kill, they KO'd ALL the hellcats before even one of them was hit. The Pershing nailed about 3 of them but there were too many of them to take out.

the AI advanced with infantry and they were backed up by the Puma's and the 37 mm AA flak HT's and that combo was VERY difficult to stop.

Those Sd 7/2 37 mm are indeed VERY difficult to take out with AP and seem quite resistant to HE fire, even from the Pershing.

If I was a German player I would buy LOTS of these things because they are indeed very GOOD bang for the BUCK!!!

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 04-02-2001).]