Wehrmatch had a different salute?

[Gyrene]

I was watching a special on Goering in the History Channel (Oh, oh) and in a excerpt from one of his letters later in the war it stated that he thought the Wehrmatch should not be exempted from the "Heil" type of salute (Heil as I called it, the outsretched, right arm to front and up salute)

From my Hollywood based education I assumed that this was a widespread form of saluting, but that the standard hand-to-visor salute was also used.

Was the "Heil Hitler" type of salute something that was reserved for members of the Nazi party and High Command types?

Hope any of my question makes sense.

Gyrene

[Michael Dorosh]

http://members.home.net/deutschesoldaten/

I have a section on the salute here.

Click on RENDERING HONOURS

Basically, the German Army saluted in a manner similar to the Americans and British (see photos on my site). On 24 July 1944, this salute was officially replaced with the German Greeting (Hitler salute, as we might call it.)

But there were many instances where the "heil" salute was also used, even before the bomb plot - when in civilian clothes, for example.

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p>

[Gyrene]

Michael, thanks for the info. It's interesting to note how somebody like Goering would push for such a token gesture.

Paints a good picture of the paranoia amongst the High Command of Germany late in the war.

Gyrene

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Michael, thanks for the info. It's interesting to note how somebody like Goering would push for such a token gesture.

Paints a good picture of the paranoia amongst the High Command of Germany late in the war.

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

Nazis were big on form over substance. How's the tourney stuff coming along? Sorry I haven't had time to go indepth over your ideas, but really, I have no argument with any of the stuff you've presented. As we discussed in the general forum, I am up to my neck in getting my non-CM website (one of them, anyway) onto its own server and domain name, which will have me pretty busy. Let me know if you need any specific help - and let me know when the tourney starts! You've got some exciting ideas in there. If I can come up with any credible tasks for your task list, I will pass them on!

[Geier]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Michael, thanks for the info. It's interesting to note how somebody like Goering would push for such a token gesture.

Paints a good picture of the paranoia amongst the High Command of Germany late in the war.

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

Something else in this vein I believe I picked up from Len Deighton's "Bomber" is that the Waffen-SS (possibly the entire organisation SS) discouraged the use of "Herr" in communication, something that the Wehrmacht (and Germans in general) always used. That is, you said Herr Leutnant, Herr Doktor but not Herr Sturmbannführer.

Anyone who can corroborate this?

Johan

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Geier:

Something else in this vein I believe I picked up from Len Deighton's "Bomber" is that the Waffen-SS (possibly the entire organisation SS) discouraged the use of "Herr" in communication, something that the Wehrmacht (and Germans in general) always used. That is, you said Herr Leutnant, Herr Doktor but not Herr Sturmbannführer.

Anyone who can corroborate this?

Johan<hr></blockquote>

We had a huge discussion of this last year, and you are correct. The Army still used "Herr" but the Waffen SS, apparently, did not. M. Hofbauer came up with some good quotes from unit histories to corroborate this. I was the one who brought it up, actually, and at least one German speaker argued that this was incorrect, but the weight of evidence provided by Markus showed this to be true. It's also in the US Army Field Manual on German Military Forces that is available online - one of the things US Intelligence got right.

[Geier]

And if I had bothered to check with Herr Dorosch's site before opening my mouth I would have read that, yes, indeed did the SS discourage the use of "Herr".

Sorry for taking up space but it is anyway interesting that so many novels and films hasn't picked up on this little fact.

Johan

[Berlichtingen]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Basically, the German Army saluted in a manner similar to the Americans and British <hr></blockquote>

American. The US Military uses the 'Prussian' style salute (palm down)... not the palm out Pommie style.

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

American. The US Military uses the 'Prussian' style salute (palm down)... not the palm out Pommie style.<hr></blockquote>

But the German style was not either; it faced out (when correctly excecuted) at an angle, not as radical as the "pommie" style, but not completely in a palm down manner as down by US servicemen.

And definitely not without a hat on! Don't know when that custom crept into the US military - I don't think the Marines salute without a cover though - which would bring us back to....Gyrene???

[Ales Dvorak]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

not the palm out Pommie style.

Be nice......

[Ales Dvorak]

Ufff... I know B. ( joke)

[Ryan Crierie]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

And definitely not without a hat on! Don't know when that custom crept into the US military - I don't think the Marines salute without a cover though - which would bring us back to....Gyrene???<hr></blockquote>

I think it was Baron von Steuben who did that

when he trained Washington's troops at Valley

Forge.

[Michael Emrys]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

...I don't think the Marines salute without a cover though...<hr></blockquote>

Neither does the Navy, of which the Marines may be considered a part. (I'm not sure how Gyrene will take that last part though.)

Michael

[Ogadai]

Wasn't the introduction of the "Heil Hitler" salute a further means of enforcing loyalty upon what was, after the October 20 Bomb Plot percieved as a potentially disloyal/relacitrant armed services by the Nazis?

One thing that always surprises me about American saluting is the sloppy way it appears to be all too often executed. From my admittedly extremely limited military experience, we were taught the correct way to salute and the timing of it and heaven help anybody if they did it wrong. Yet from everything I've seen seems to indicate that the US services had a much more relaxed view of how a salute should be performed.

Another thing that interests me, where did this thing, when a civilian, of placing one's hand over one's heart come from in US society? In Commonwealth nations you either stand to attention or, if wearing one, remove your hat, when the national anthem is played.

[Gyrene]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>And definitely not without a hat on! Don't know when that custom crept into the US military - I don't think the Marines salute without a cover though - which would bring us back to....Gyrene??? <hr></blockquote>

Marines, sailors & coasties do not salute without a cover, and only sallute indoors when "Under Arms".

A Marine Under Arms will be wearing a duty belt, which is basically a 786 gear belt with an USMC buckle or a Sam Browne belt, which is worn exclusively by Senior Drill Instructors.

A Sailor or Marine cannot wear a cover indoors unless he's under arms, and this tradition is strictly adhered to.

There's quite a number of rules on saluting in the USMC, and you ave them drilled into your head so much that I cringe when I see little saluting gaffes on movies, like cutting the salute before the senior officer does or at the same time or slauting without a greeting.

Michael Emrys:Yes, we're part of the Dept of the Navy and you should see the convolutions one must go thru when boarding a ship.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> By Ogadai: One thing that always surprises me about American saluting is the sloppy way it appears to be all too often executed. From my admittedly extremely limited military experience, we were taught the correct way to salute and the timing of it and heaven help anybody if they did it wrong. Yet from everything I've seen seems to indicate that the US services had a much more relaxed view of how a salute should be performed. <hr></blockquote>

lol, not in the Marine Corps, ask any marine who got caught not saluting a Blue Sticker (Officer's car) or an officer properly. A Marine in Alpha's standing at attention saluting everything that moves is a common sight in training camps. One way to make sure you remember.

Ben Stein from Comdey Central is a civilian who does a very good Marine salute. His sage security include a large number of former Marines.

Gyrene

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ogadai:

Wasn't the introduction of the "Heil Hitler" salute a further means of enforcing loyalty upon what was, after the October 20 Bomb Plot percieved as a potentially disloyal/relacitrant armed services by the Nazis?<hr></blockquote>

If you mean the bomb plot on July 20 1944, you are correct. Sort of. You can't enforce loyalty, but, yes this was a means of instilling in officers and men a sense of their obligation. All ranks also reswore their oath - which was directly to Hitler personally.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> I swear by God this Holy Oath, that I will give unlimited obedience to the Führer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler, and as a brave soldier am ready to stake my life for this oath at any time.<hr></blockquote>

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p>

[ASL Veteran]

What was the origin of the salute? Does it signify a 'tipping of the hat'?

[Gyrene]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> What was the origin of the salute? Does it signify a 'tipping of the hat'? <hr></blockquote>

Supposdely it goes back to the Middle Ages where knights would flip up their helmet visors to identify themselves and as a gesture of respect.

Gyrene

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Supposdely it goes back to the Middle Ages where knights would flip up their helmet visors to identify themselves and as a gesture of respect.

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

I read also the doubtful story that when Queen Victoria gave medals to members of the Royal Navy, they were ordered to shield their eyes from her beauty.

I doubt this for several reasons, chiefly the traditional story that Gyrene related, but mostly...I've seen her picture.

[Berlichtingen]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

And definitely not without a hat on! Don't know when that custom crept into the US military - I don't think the Marines salute without a cover though - which would bring us back to....Gyrene???<hr></blockquote>

Marines never salute without a 'cover' on.

[Splinty]

The U.S. Army does salute indoors,but only when reporting to an officer. It's also the only time we salute without a cap on. Except when under arms which is the only time you can wear a cap indoors.

[Cpl Carrot]

I have heard a couple of reasons: One is the knights tipping their visors, the other is to show that your hands were empty (not an assasian). I tend to beleive the knight theory myself but perhaps the other has some element of truth. Who knows?

[Ellros]

Long ago I heard a silly reason for the difference in salutes between the US and European armies (although it kinda makes sense)...

If your country has lost an actual war, you salute with the palm facing away. If you have not, then the salute is with the palm down.

Sounds odd, and I doubt it's the real reason, but I thought it was interesting.

[Michael Emrys]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ogadai:

One thing that always surprises me about American saluting is the sloppy way it appears to be all too often executed.<hr></blockquote>

I'm not so sure that the proper description is 'sloppy' but rather 'casual'. I suspect this may have entered practice during WW II when a lot of citizen soldiers enlisted or were drafted for the duration. That, combined with having to learn almost overnight a new way of making war meant that a lot of "old dog" ways of doing things, including a lot of the spit and polish, went out the window. It's not that discipline was lax, it's just that it was concentrated on what were considered the necessities.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Michael, you are right on the money. Canadian soldiers, even though all volunteer in Europe until early 1945, were EXTREMELY casual in matters of dress, and, I presume, saluting. Take a look at the way Canadian troops wear their berets in any period photo and you will see what I mean - wearing them properly seems to have been the exception rather than the rule.

I can't remember the source, but I read somewhere that a European, after being liberated by the US Army, compared the way they marched to the way the Germans had marched, and stated that "they (the Americans) walk like free men"!

It's a pretty apt description, really.

There are other examples of this "casualness" among North American troops - not "sirring" officers to death, for example, or constant orders to Canadian troops not to wear their canvas PT shoes for walking out in. Canadian troops in Britain were forbidden from wearing civilian clothes - so to go dancing they had to go in uniform, including hobnailed boots (unless they bought some low quarter shoes). And so - they wore their PT shoes to dance in (think of the poor girls' feet...) and ignored orders.

Enough to drive a sergeant major mad. But they won the war, after all...