Buy More Zooks!

[JasonC]

I thought CM players might be interested in the following test results from CM today. Test conditions - each of 5 firing lanes has 3 elite zook teams in foxholes in scattered trees behind a stone wall. 100-110 meters away, German ubertanks. The Germans are buttoned and ammo-less, but have their MGs.

Trial 1 - Panthers *facing* the bazookas. Result - all Panthers dead in 35 seconds. No side hits occurred. Total hits - 24. Lower hull hits - 4.

Lower hull penetrations - 4. LH Pens that KO - 4. Turret hits - 7. Turret hits at weak point - 1. Turret penetrations - 1, the weak point hit - the 5th KO. Gun hits - 2. Track hits - 2. Upper hull bounces - 9. Implied kill probability - 5/24 or ~20%. So, the expectation is 3 hits needed to kill half of all targets engaged. From the *front*.

Trial 2&3 - Tiger Is broadside. Result - all Tigers dead in 21 seconds (#2) or 15 seconds (#3). Total KO hits - 12 (some overkill). Track hits - 3. Flaking with crew loss - 1. No significant damage - 4. Kill probability per hit - 60%. Understand, the zooks are slightly spread, so there is some side angle for 2/3 shots, but not much. 1 hit needed to kill half of all targets engaged.

Trial 4&5 - King Tigers broadside. Result - all KTs dead in 25 seconds (#4) or 15 seconds (#5). Total KO hits - 11 (one case of overkill). Track

hits - 1 Gun hits - 2. NSD - 6 (some flaking, no crew loss). Kill probability per hit - 55%. Even with some side angle, and against 20-25

degrees slope to begin with. The lower armor quality about makes up for the slope, leaving the overall results quite similar to the Tiger I case. 1 hit needed to kill half of all targets engaged.

Zooks are great. Regular ones only cost 14 points; they get 8 shots; they can be expected to hit things out to 100 meters pretty consistently, and you can let fly at 150 meters if you shoot from buildings or behind walls, watch the obstructions, or have several to open up at once. They also ignite woods and buildings at 100 yards, three times the range of flamethrowers, more often than you might think. They can knock down buildings with sustained "area fire", and they KO wooden bunkers with ease.

Buy lots. Two per platoon, at least.

[Michael Dorosh]

Into the liquor a bit early, aren't we? Oh well, if you can't be drunk on the forum on your birthday, when can you. Many happy returns on the day!

[PiggDogg]

I too buy lots of zooks or pzfausts when I have the 'misfortune' of playing a human pick troops game.

I prefer to let the computer choose the troops. But I just 'love' the all Hetzer, all Jumbo, all nuclear arty, all paratrooper, all KingTiger armies. They are just so, so realistic force mixes.

Cheers, Richard

[Ligur]

The problem for me is placing 3 elite zooks at 100 meters to a German Uber Tank and not get shot down to bits by HE, supporting tanks or AFV or the screening infantry that is present. I rarely get to pick elite troops anyway.

But if I get into a fight where I know I will be facing many German Uber Tanks from 100 meters when they don't have operationl guns, with elite zooks, I will surely jump at the chance and buy only elite zooks.

[Tanaka]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Richard Cuccia, the PiggDogg:

I too buy lots of zooks or pzfausts when I have the 'misfortune' of playing a human pick troops game.

<hr></blockquote>

Misfortune ?!? What on earth makes you play what you don't like ? Why do you play them ? What makes you endure such pain ? Tell me, I'm curious... :cool:

As I'm on it,

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

...armies...

<hr></blockquote>

I would roll my eyes too, if I was doing army size battle on a squad/vehicle level... :eek:

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p>

[Snake Eyes]

The following is a portion of an interview with Robert M. Murphy, 82nd Airborne, by Ray Tapio of Critical Hit. The interview concerns actions during the Normandy campaign. The entire interview can be found in Critical Hit's 'All American Gamers Guide'.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>CH: About those German tanks?

RM: Three of them came up and two of them were knocked out. I was right here (gestures to hex AA9). They were smaller tanks. Not the Tiger tanks but French ones. They were firing at us. Then Peterson (Pfc. John D. Peterson, manning a bazooka with assistant gunner Marcus Heim, Jr. on the left) gets up and fires a Bazooka into the first tank. They were just bouncing off until he got one into it.

CH: In our game system a hit by a bazooka on a Renault tank will likely knock it out.

RM: Bazooka rounds were hitting the tanks and failed to stop them. The first tank was knocked out here (gestures to hex X8). The second one came right up behind him. Then the second one was knocked out. He steered to the left as if he was trying to go around the first one. Then he was hit.<hr></blockquote>

I find this interesting in that even the thin-skinned Renaults took several hits before being knocked out. As with all shaped charged weapons best results are attained by a hit that is perpendicular to the armor. Hitting the armor at an angle and/or sloped armor may cause the warhead to deflect rather than penetrate. Could this be the reason that SC seems to be overly effective in CM?

[aka_tom_w]

This is not really news

(to me anyway)

zooks work GREAT at killing uber tanks

In a game setting the secret is to POUR the smoke on HEAVY and insert a Vet (or better) zook team within about 25-30 m of the side or rear of the tank (unsupressed of course) and you can just about guarantee its untimely death, the tank that is, you might loose the zook team, but that's life.

Its nice to hide the 'zooks and wait for the tank to approach, but skilled players know better than to let this happen so sometimes you have to be a bit more proactive and go after them and try to get those zook teams in close. To insert them close, use something light and fast under cover of smoke like a HT or a Greyhound. Using ALOT of smoke is the sercret, then make a quick dash in, an HT with 2 'zook teams can do wonders, or else risk being called "really gamey" and rush a 'zook team in (under cover of smoke of course) in the back of a jeep, as they are fast and expendable.

AND yes I learned sometime ago, Jason is correct, the 'zook anti tank weapon, (if is can get a hit) works exceedingly well against all German armour, even Tigers and KTs.

Great post Jason C!

And YES Buy more 'zooks they are cheap and work well when used correctly in a battlefield situation. (No wonder the Krauts lost!)

-tom w

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]</p>

[Tanaka]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

...'zooks they are cheap and work well when used correctly in a battlefield situation. (No wonder the Krauts lost!)

<hr></blockquote>

Yes, yes ...zook was THE most important weapon of the war, it was the zook that took us all the way to Berlin !

Ok, ok we actually didn't ride them, but you understand, don't you ? :eek:

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p>

[JasonC]

Ligur, try the test yourself and see. They don't have to be elite zooks, I just used them to get the hits faster so the test didn't take too long to run. Regulars will do the same thing when they hit, they just hit less at longer ranges.

[Jeff Duquette]

Hmmm....interesting test results. Maybe you do have something here, especially with respect to the frontal kills on a Panther. One in three hits resulting in a kill seems pretty high. Perhaps some AAR research is in order?

[JasonC]

Well, I don't doubt that happened in reality, Snake Eyes, but you needn't worry about it in CM. I just did the test again, and little Hotchkiss tanks all died in 25 seconds to just regular zooks - even without foxholes, and even with ammo for the tanks, and unbuttoned to spot the zooks fast. Even with 15 misses, they still got 6 hits (that is regulars for you - the only real difference from elites is they hit 25-30% of the time instead of 50%), and every hit was a kill. Front turret, two upper front hull, side turret, side upper and lower hull - touch 'em and they are toast. Half the crews caught something too (easy enough with tiny 2-man tanks). Tigers survive one hit sometimes, but not the little stuff. So merrily blast away. Zooks are your friends.

[JasonC]

More like 1 in 5, Jeff. But every hit on the lower front hull penetrated. Don't believe that "none" kill chance reading on the LOS tool - it isn't corrected for the abysmal armor quality on Panthers. Zook rounds go right in. The only reason you need several hits is to "find" the lower hull with one of them.

And actually, sometimes a zook round will go through the turret front. Yep, even 110mm at 10 degrees can't stand up to the mighty 60mm HEAT thrower from a warm place, what with 85% armor quality. You do need a weak point penetration, it is true, but the turret front isn't invunerable.

See, 110 x 0.85 = 93.5. And 10 degrees can add as little as 1% to the effective thickness, and not more than 3%. Which puts the effective vertical thickness of the Panther turret front at around 95mm of armor. The zook is rated to penetrate 90mm flat, and it can get the rest from a weak point penetration result.

But the lower hull is the real vunerable spot. It is 60mm at 55 degrees of slope. Now, you might think that since zooks failed uniformly against 45mm at 60 degrees on T-34s, they should be able to get through 1/3rd more armor at only 5 degrees less slope.

But that is before quality. The 0.85 quality drops the effective thickness to 51mm. And 55 degrees is only about 85% of the boost of a full 60 degrees. The bazooka is rated to penetrate 45mm at 60 degrees, and 51 is only 13.3% more than 45. 1/.85 is 1.176, which is more than 1.133.

In it goes, Panther is toast. So you get vunerable plate over about 1/6 to 1/5 of the front aspect of the tank. Which is all you need if you can get several hits in succession. It takes 3 hits to get a 50% expected chance of KOing a Panther from the front with a zook. Zooks just rock.

[Snake Eyes]

I wonder if BTS treats SC the same as it does AP? It is tougher to secure a 'good' hit with SC because the SC head must form a good seal in order for the charge to have a chance to penetrate.

[JasonC]

Oh, I expect they give greater variability to HEAT penetration than to AP penetration. But there is nothing like asking them...

[Vanir Ausf B]

The odds of a single zook round penetrating a Panther frontally in CM is either 13% or 22%, depending on what model of Panther you are using and whether CM models the shot trap as having the same effect as on AP shot (I don't know if it does or not). This is assuming the tank is not hull down; if it is the chance is either 1% or 10 %, as above.

CM rates the Tiger I as having 80mm side armor at 100% quality and the bazooka as penetrating 90mm at 0 degrees. Does anyone have any information that either of these figures is incorrect?

KT is delt with in the other thread.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC:

Zooks are great. Regular ones only cost 14 points; they get 8 shots; they can be expected to hit things out to 100 meters pretty consistently, and you can let fly at 150 meters if you shoot from buildings or behind walls, watch the obstructions, or have several to open up at once. They also ignite woods and buildings at 100 yards, three times the range of flamethrowers, more often than you might think. They can knock down buildings with sustained "area fire", and they KO wooden bunkers with ease.<hr></blockquote>

This is an exaggeration. If you shoot from a building the zook will suppress itself with the backblast, and there is a significant chance it will set the building on fire. In fact, zooks (and shrecks) are far more likely to set their own position on fire than the area they are firing at. Also, with a blast rating of 6 you would need a large number of them to knock down a building.

In real CM games the tanks do have HE and the good players screen them with infantry so that you never get your zook within 100m. In my expirience, it is rare for a zook or shreck to get off more than 2 shots before it dies.

In the time I have been playing CM I have never lost a tank to a zook, and have only lost 1 to a shreck (this is against human opponents). I am paranoid and that keeps my tanks alive. I've also been a little lucky at times.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Buy lots. Two per platoon, at least.<hr></blockquote>

I buy one per company. That's all you need to keep the other guy honest and to punish him if he gets sloppy.

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]</p>

[Gyrene]

Yes, bazookas (And PIATs) work very well. The problem is getting them close enough to hit the enemy tanks.

The extra range afforded to shrek users is golden.

Gyrene

[JasonC]

To Vanir - Well, in a recent outing against a human player, I killed a "Super-Sherman" (76mm W+ HVSS) with a green schreck, and gun-damaged its mate (same model), with the same team. Both with turret penetrations, and both within about 40 seconds, firing from the second floor of a tall wooden building.

The range was 100-125m, and there was some smoke about (he put it there, not me). A green schreck costs 18 points. Those tanks cost my opponent 424 points; one was KOed, the other crippled. Methinks infantry AT teams can work a bit better against humans than you would have it.

Despite the suppression of backblast. If you haven't noticed it or tested it yourself, you should experiment with the effects of cover on AT team accuracy. Standing in woods blocks the aim, and degrade accuracy quite rapidly. The best is hiding behind a wall. Before you fire, head down and therefore 100% cover. When you fire, no obstruction and thus full accuracy. And no suppression.

But inside buildings you get the full accuracy, unlike shooting from woods. The suppression is annoying of course, especially when it means no rapid second shot after the first miss. But it is better than missing because of the trees in the way. If you try to avoid both by putting the team right at the edge of the trees, you can never break contact after an ambush, because you remain visible for 20 yards into the woods.

I find it is better to take an accurate shot, with an ambush marker or coming off "hide", and then to break contact the following turn. With the suppression penalty be darned (if you don't have a wall, to get the best of both).

And no, everyone can't keep infantry security 150 yards around every vehicle he's got, and still have LOS from such vehicles to useful targets - unless he wants to take his own armor out of the fight. Which is a "firepower kill" by any other name. Just sulk back until you see the leading infantry and not the tanks, and roast the foot pounders, from out of LOS of his armor. If he wants LOS again, make him come within 150 yards.

[Vanir Ausf B]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC:

To Vanir - Well, in a recent outing against a human player, I killed a "Super-Sherman" (76mm W+ HVSS) with a green schreck, and gun-damaged its mate (same model), with the same team. Both with turret penetrations, and both within about 40 seconds, firing from the second floor of a tall wooden building.

The range was 100-125m, and there was some smoke about (he put it there, not me). A green schreck costs 18 points. Those tanks cost my opponent 424 points; one was KOed, the other crippled. Methinks infantry AT teams can work a bit better against humans than you would have it.<hr></blockquote>

So are you saying that shrecks are overmodeled as well? They are more accurate than zooks. You also were a bit lucky.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>But inside buildings you get the full accuracy, unlike shooting from woods.<hr></blockquote>

Wrong. Firing from a building does degrade accuracy vs. firing from open terrain.

BTW, you don't need to tell me how effective AT teams can be. Although I have not been keeping track, I would estimate that of all the tanks I have KOed vs. human opponents, about 1/4 of them have been by AT teams (all types). A few were to lucky long range kills, like the example you gave above (my personal record is a 185m shreck kill vs. a M8 HMC), but most were at less than 100m when my opponent got careless.

But I don't need 2 per platoon to do this.

A couple of other quick points:

The 22% number I gave above may be too high. It assumes a 10% weak point penetration chance vs. the whole tank then using a Panther with a shot trap. If the shot trap only works when struck on the turret then the chance is closer to 16%. Of course, ideally the shot trap should not even be a factor with shaped charge rounds.

CM rates the Tiger side turret to be at a 0 degree slope, but in fact the armor is not flat. It does curve along the horizontal plane, which could effect rounds that otherwise are marginal in their ability to penetrate that area (Sherman 75 and zook). It would perhaps be more accurate to assign a 10-15 degree slope to the side hull to reflect this (that number is a guess based upon nothing more than eyeballing overhead pictures, so don't take it to heart).

German ubertanks also have very high silhouette ratings, which makes them much easier to hit. I suspect CM does not weigh vehicle height as heavily as it should.

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]</p>

[Vanir Ausf B]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

In the time I have been playing CM I have never lost a tank to a zook, and have only lost 1 to a shreck (this is against human opponents). I am paranoid and that keeps my tanks alive. I've also been a little lucky at times.<hr></blockquote>

Minor self correction here, due to small brain fart. The tank I lost was to a zook. Mk IV at 150m. Oddly, it was in the same game I got the 185m shreck kill.

[Agua Perdido]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC:

So merrily blast away. Zooks are your friends.<hr></blockquote>

Amen, brother! They're brilliant for counter-AT work, as well. In a recent attack QB, I took out two 50mm PAKs with 'zook shots. In fact, one 'zook engaged the gun in hand-to-hand combat, and inflicted a casualty!. The following turn, it fired a shot which KOed the gun, then took the remaining crew prisoner. Now that's the uberness we'd normally expect from Finnish AT troops! (Okay, the PAK was also under fire from nearby infantry squads, but the 'zook got credit for the KO and capturing the crew.)

See my .sig for the appropriate German counter-tactic.

Agua Perdido

[PzKpfw 1]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Oddly, it was in the same game I got the 185m shreck kill.<hr></blockquote>

Heh my lil Brit PIAT team got an 198m TF kill on an Tiger II a while back .

Regards, John Waters

[Snake Eyes]

This old thread has some interesting claims for long range 'zook, 'schrek & PIAT kills.

[Gen-x87H]

What are the hit rates like when a tank has its usual compliment of infantry support?

I am guessing not to hot hehe.

Gen

[Slapdragon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

Heh my lil Brit PIAT team got an 198m TF kill on an Tiger II a while back .

Regards, John Waters<hr></blockquote>

That is nothing, my Chreck shot down two allied fighter bombers then close assaulted a bunker!

[moosehead]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

In the time I have been playing CM I have never lost a tank to a zook, and have only lost 1 to a shreck (this is against human opponents).

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]<hr></blockquote>

Now now, thats not true. I got one of your tanks with a zook.