Guy w/gun Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Why is it, every time one of my Shermans stumbles upon a Tiger and I tell it to GET MOVING OR DIE...the tank commander always sees fit to disobey and actually try to slug it out with the tiger!!!??? Even if the turn ends and I cancel the target and tell the Sherman to move it, it always re-targets and sits there. Do Sherman crews LIKE to see their shells bounce of Tigers??? Do they enjoy having there tanks explode from underneath them??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 What kind of a movement order are you using? The tank should move if you tell it to Move or Fast Move. If you tell it to Hunt it won't go anywhere, because it's already got a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 7, 2001 Author Share Posted January 7, 2001 I told it to move FAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously though, it seems to happen mainly when the Sherman kinda stumbles upon the Tiger. It's not so much that the idiots inside decide to actually sit and target the Tiger from head on, it's more the fact that even when I cancel the target and tell them to back up/move fast they decide to reaquire the target and trade fire (guess what happens next? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun: I told it to move FAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously though, it seems to happen mainly when the Sherman kinda stumbles upon the Tiger. It's not so much that the idiots inside decide to actually sit and target the Tiger from head on, it's more the fact that even when I cancel the target and tell them to back up/move fast they decide to reaquire the target and trade fire (guess what happens next? ) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The new move order you gave means for a regular crew that the Sherman will stay perfectly still for 13 secs before diving off. Maybe you should have left the Tac AI to its own devices, which usually mean an instant reverse to 'cover'. ------------------ Absolutely Shatter, you have been completely misunderstood. When Andreas, Chuppy and Peter posted pictures of themselves at the IWM I took the earliest opportunity to complement Chuppy on how hot he looked in that T-shirt. Of course the next time an appropriate thread about the front bogey wheel on the Matilda II came up I skillfully insinuated a subtle remark about what a spunk PeterNZ was and a redhead too! But alas, shatter, everyone thought I was a dickhead as well. ------------------ Muddying the waters as usual. by Simon Fox Mr T says "I pity the foo!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 What type of sherman 75mm or 76mm. The 76's have a small chance to kill against the front hull or he might have tunsten to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 7, 2001 Author Share Posted January 7, 2001 Next time I will leave the TacAI alone. I never understood why in CM, the crew waits if new orders are given. It's as if the crew has ESP and knows it will recieve orders in 13 sec, but doesn't know what they'll be so they wait. Seems that in real life the Tank wouldn't have a pause, it would simply go by the orders of the TC until it recieved your orders, and then it would try to carry them out (except of course if its last orders were to stay put or something). So instead of a 13 second "pause", you would have a period of 13 seconds where it follows the last orders given, or simply follows the TacAI orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 7, 2001 Author Share Posted January 7, 2001 76mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun: Next time I will leave the TacAI alone. I never understood why in CM, the crew waits if new orders are given. It's as if the crew has ESP and knows it will recieve orders in 13 sec, but doesn't know what they'll be so they wait. Seems that in real life the Tank wouldn't have a pause, it would simply go by the orders of the TC until it recieved your orders, and then it would try to carry them out (except of course if its last orders were to stay put or something). So instead of a 13 second "pause", you would have a period of 13 seconds where it follows the last orders given, or simply follows the TacAI orders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 13sec of the TC saying what? "Say again all after 11 this is 0A move to....." And then yelling at the driver "fullspeed to that bunch of trees half right!" 13 sec for a regular crew to recive and then action orders, pretty dam good if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 7, 2001 Author Share Posted January 7, 2001 I think you missed my point. Would a crew just sit there with there fingers in their asses? Simple example. Regular Tank is ordered to move forward 100 meters. At 50 meters you decide to give the tank new orders: reverse back 25 meters. What does the tank do? It stops dead cold...doesn't continue forward...waits 13 seconds, then proceeds to reverse. Im not saying this is good or bad, I'm just asking if this is realistic. Try it yourself...get in your car and drive down the road. Have your friend call you on a cell phone and tell you to take the next right. It may take a few sec from the point he called you to the point when he has finished his directions, but your car will be moving the WHOLE time (unlike the CM tanks which pause). Its not as if as soon as he finishes dialing your number, you magically know that a change of direction will take place and you bring the car to a complete stop. You had no idea when his directions were coming and what they would be. So you kept driving straight. If there's some really good reason for the pause, or if tank crew really did some how know that an order was coming through before it arrived and stopped cold to listen to it, then I'm sorry about this post. I also hoped I didn't confuse anyone with what my gripe is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 I think the pause is realistic most of the time, its a really good, simple system. Unfortunitly it has 1 major floor IMO. That is when the turn ends with your little M8 or halftrack in full los of a Panther or some such. Obviously you have no chance of a kill and need to find cover fast. But you are stuck to the spot for 13 secs (reg crew), whilst the panther rips you a new ass. Pretty unrealistic and crappy. Solution???? A withdraw command for armour, just like infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 Well the thread title you chose may be a little wide and provocative but I agree there might be a case for 'withdraw' order for armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun: I think you missed my point. Would a crew just sit there with there fingers in their asses? .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They wern't they were carrying out the TC last orders (engage the Tiger then pop smoke and get out) before you decided to throw a spanner in the works by giving new orders, meaning that time was taken up accepting then actioning the new orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadmaN Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 yeah armor and vehicles ned Withdrawl. kinda makes sense that they do. why wouldnt they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 Fox: "Bastardables I order you to send me that turn." Delay: 1209600 sec Fox: "Cripes!" ------------------ Muddying the waters as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Canuck Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 Well, I what I do when I know that some poor sap has gotten into the LOS of a Panther or such( Iand I know there will be a 8-13 second time period to withdrawl.) What I do is order the nearest mortar or anything else that can fire smoke, to smoke the area with smoke, to cover that poor saps withdrawl. Alot of this hinges on the re-loading rate of the enemy tank, and hopefully they won't get off a shot within the first 5 secs. Did I say that all right? Hope it made sense, cuz it sure does for me. cameesh? Cioa tutti! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B M Deleted Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 when I first saw the subject, I thought it said, "Sherman crews are mormons." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JAZZA Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 They would probably get more converts if they went door to door knocking using shermans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 YES withdraw for vehicles! The 60 second stop and start raises issues like this. I bet if you watched a CM game all the way through - like a 30 min movie - that it would be very clear where the 60 second intervals are. Anything which alleviates that is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dog Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun: I think you missed my point. Would a crew just sit there with there fingers in their asses? Simple example. Regular Tank is ordered to move forward 100 meters. At 50 meters you decide to give the tank new orders: reverse back 25 meters. What does the tank do? It stops dead cold...doesn't continue forward...waits 13 seconds, then proceeds to reverse. Im not saying this is good or bad, I'm just asking if this is realistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tanks make a lot of noise while moving, maybe the stop and pause represents the TC telling the driver to stop so he can hear the incomming radio transmition. Then he has to give orders to the crew and the crew executes them. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Try it yourself...get in your car and drive down the road. Have your friend call you on a cell phone and tell you to take the next right. It may take a few sec from the point he called you to the point when he has finished his directions, but your car will be moving the WHOLE time (unlike the CM tanks which pause). Its not as if as soon as he finishes dialing your number, you magically know that a change of direction will take place and you bring the car to a complete stop. You had no idea when his directions were coming and what they would be. So you kept driving straight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, if I'm driving in my jeep with the top down and someone calls my cell phone I frequently have to pull over and stop in order to hear them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiJoe: I think the pause is realistic most of the time, its a really good, simple system. Unfortunitly it has 1 major floor IMO. That is when the turn ends with your little M8 or halftrack in full los of a Panther or some such. Obviously you have no chance of a kill and need to find cover fast. But you are stuck to the spot for 13 secs (reg crew), whilst the panther rips you a new ass. Pretty unrealistic and crappy. Solution???? A withdraw command for armour, just like infantry. Try it yourself...get in your car and drive down the road. Have your friend call you on a cell phone and tell you to take the next right. It may take a few sec from the point he called you to the point when he has finished his directions, but your car will be moving the WHOLE time (unlike the CM tanks which pause). Its not as if as soon as he finishes dialing your number, you magically know that a change of direction will take place and you bring the car to a complete stop. You had no idea when his directions were coming and what they would be. So you kept driving straight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Or you can just let the Tac AI get itself out of there if it can. Veh Tac AI actually quite good at this. This is the reason that the British ended the micromanagement of Sqn commanders during combat of every tanks pos, cripes individual tanks had to radio in and request orders to change fire positions as German shells started pinging off the armour. The British then began handing the movement and firing of individual tanks within the context of combat to individual TC’s. In CM you’re the Company, Battalion or Battle group commander not the TC, therefore you do not have complete or instance control over individual units. Your car example………. Yes well how about you join the Royal New Zealand army become a Signaller and become attached to the armoured corps during your army career much like I did and have actual experience with military equipment and its use and/or misuse. Also the CM tank only pauses because A: the TC want to have a go B: you had the move order end there, which with a touch of irony at the moment the 1min movie stops and then you decide to insert a 13 sec possem to get and then action your orders instead of allowing the tank to react by itself C: you deleted the old order and issued a brand new reverse order. [This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 01-07-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 I was under the impression that the command delay represented orders from higher up (i.e., you, the incorporeal god/general of the CM world hovering over the action) filtering down--hence making radio contact (being in command) important for reducing those delays among infantry. In fact, the first paragraph on p.72 of the manual pretty much verifies this. So, it's not a question of the TC trying to remember how to order his driver to back off, it's an abstracted representation of him about to back off in self-preservation (TacAI), then suddenly getting radio orders from higher up (i.e., ultimately from you) telling him to do the same thing ------------------ I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. --Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun: 76mm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, that's your answer. The 76mm has a very good chance at killing a Tiger, execpt a long ranges. [This message has been edited by Pak40 (edited 01-07-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dog Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 I think Bastables is right on the mark here... I've learned this the hard way myself. When a tank accidently gets in over it's head (Sherman running up against a Tiger is certainly one possibility ) at the end of turn, you will be VERY, VERY tempted to intervene and give an order. But the best advise here is: DON'T!! Let that commander save his tank and crew and not have to hassle with a radio call from you telling him to do the obvious. Sometimes doing *nothing* is the best action - Old Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwcanuck Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 I also feel a withdrawl for armoured vehicles should be in the game under the same parameters as the infantry. This is when the crew will disobey or wait for any orders and take a hasty retreat on their own initiative with the understanding they might end up in a shocked situation after their withdrawl similar to infantry who withdrawl and start panicking. RW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 KiwiJoe wrote: > I think the pause is realistic most of the time, its a really good, simple system. Unfortunitly it has 1 major floor IMO. That is when the turn ends with your little M8 or halftrack in full los of a Panther or some such. Obviously you have no chance of a kill and need to find cover fast. But you are stuck to the spot for 13 secs (reg crew), whilst the panther rips you a new ass. Pretty unrealistic and crappy. I'm not quite sure that makes sense. What happens if your M8 ends up in LOS of a Panther halfway through the turn? You can't issue it orders at all, you've got to just hope it saves itself. So why is there a problem if it happens at the end of a turn? It's only a problem if you insist on giving it orders yourself. If you just leave it to its own devices, it will do what it would have done at any other point. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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