Kill rate of German SP guns

[Danny Chung]

Hi everyhody

Like everybody else, I'm cannot wait until CMBB comes out.

I ran across this book at the local library,

War on the Eastern Front - The German Soldier in Russia 1941-1945

by James Lucas

Greenhill Books 1979

In one chapter, the book revealed that SP crews had a better kill rate than those of normal tank crews.

The book had the following statistic:

"By the end of May 1944, more than 20000 [kills] had been logged and this figure rose to 30000 by the end of the war."

It said that, "so successful were the German SP gunners that it was a standing order to Russian tank crews to avoid a duel with an SP if at all possible."

"A comparison between the assault artillery and the panzer arms also shows that, gun for gun, the SPs gained more 'kills' than did the tanks."

On reading this, I found it very hard to believe that panzer crews in the elite SS panzer divisions and regular Army panzer divisions could not achieve better kill rates than for SP crews.

I mean, how can Hetzer compare with a Panther in fighting ability?

I understand SPs were chiefly deployed in the infantry divisions and panzergrenadier divisions to provide close artillery support.

I do know production of SPs shot up in 1944 as Germany tried to put more armour on the field and in any case, they were cheaper to manufacture than normal tanks.

Anyway, can anyone confirm that this kill rate of SP crews?

[Chad Harrison]

i cant confirm or deny their report, but i would believe it. look at the production numbers for the SP guns towards the end of the war. they were producing StuG's and Hetzer's and all the others at huge rates.

those guns also work very well in an ambush role. from that i presume they would also be able to get more 'kills' and survive longer. which would give them a chance to become better shots.

just my random 2 bits.

[Stoffel]

most of the crews in these units were very good.

A famous example is Michael Wittman who later became a tankcommander.

Dont forget that they were used mostly in defensive actions,where they could profit from their low silhouet.

So they fired there guns at targets moving towards them,killed some and retreated to the next defensive position.

Its low silhouet made a tankhunter difficult to hit for a tank specially when the tank is moving fast

I think that tanks survived not long enough because they had to fullfill offensive tasks too.

[Andreas]

Got the book myself - I am a bit wary of trusting Lucas, and these figures seem a bit on the high side to me. I would probably substitute 'kills' by 'claims'. Jason can do the math on this one much better.

Since SP guns presumably include everything, from the Bison to the Elefant, I would think that they got a very high share of the AFV kills the Germans got. There were a number of independent Stug brigades that were used as fire brigades on the eastern front, and in that job would probably have racked up a good number of kills.

Does anyone have the production totals for tanks vs. SP guns in the German arsenal?

[PzKpfw 1]

As to the effectiveness of the Sturmgeschutz, , SP guns etc, an example is that from, August thru Nov 1944 Sturmgeschutz, & Panzerjager were credited in an German report, with causing 22 - 32% of the the OPFOR tank losses, compared to German tanks which were credited with 22 - 26% of the OPFOR tank losses.

Regards, John Waters

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]</p>

[Andreas]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

As to the effectiveness of the Sturmgeschutz, , SP guns etc, an example is that from, August thru Nov 1944 Sturmgeschutz, & Panzerjager were credited in an German report, with causing 22 - 32% of the the OPFOR tank losses, compared to German tanks which were credited with 22 - 26% of the OPFOR tank losses.

Regards, John Waters

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]<hr></blockquote>

John, I presume that would include towed guns?

[Stoffel]

Stug III a/e 1.577 to 1945

Stug III f/g 7.900 to 1945

Stug IV 1.500 (1942/43)

Jagdpanzer IV L/48 1.500 1943/44)

Jagdpanzer IV L/70 300 1945

Nashorn 493 (1943/44)

Jagdpanther 382 1944/45

hetzer 1.577 to 1945

Jagdtiger 74 in 1945

Elephant 90 1942/43

dont blame me for Typing errors

[Stoffel]

these were not all vehicles but I also found the totals!

in 1942/43 a total of 5.722 tanks were manufactured

in 1943/44 a total of 5.568 most were mark IV (3800)and 1700 panthers

in 1944/45 a total of 4.227 tanks were made mostly Panthers(3.740) rest were tiger II 487

Now SP guns

in 1942/43 a total of 10.968

in 1943/44 a total of 3.951

in 1944/45 a total of 756!

[Jagdwyrm]

The most notable Jagdpanzer IV ace was Knight's Cross holder SS-Oberscharfuehrer Roy from the 12th SS Panzerjaeger Abteilung of 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend". He accounted for 36 tank kills with his Jagdpanzer IV, since the D-Day only to be killed by an American sniper, while looking out the cupola on December 17th of 1944, during the Ardennes Offensive. I copied this from www.achtungpanzer.com

[Andreas]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Stoffel:

these were not all vehicles but I also found the totals!

in 1942/43 a total of 5.722 tanks were manufactured

in 1943/44 a total of 5.568 most were mark IV (3800)and 1700 panthers

in 1944/45 a total of 4.227 tanks were made mostly Panthers(3.740) rest were tiger II 487

Now SP guns

in 1942/43 a total of 10.968

in 1943/44 a total of 3.951

in 1944/45 a total of 756!<hr></blockquote>

Stoffel, I think the 1944/5 number seems very low. FWIW - Lexikon der Wehrmacht has:

1942

7.5 L24 33

7.5 L43 330

7.5 L48 365

10.5 leFH18 12

1943

7.5 L48 3011

10.5 leFH18 204

1944

7.5 L48 3849

10.5 leFH18 903

additional conversions from Panzer III 173 vehicles to Stug 7.5L48.

1945

7.5 L48 1038

10.5 leFH18 98

Still operational in April 1945 707 Stug, 132 StuH

Other Panzerjaeger:

Nashorn/Hornisse

1943 345

1944 133

1945 16

Jagdpanther

1943 1

1944 226

1945 198

Left on 10.4.1945 were 16.

Panzer IV/70

1944 766

1945 505

Compare that to

Panzer IV

1942 117 (L24)

1943 2425 (L48) & 877 (L43)

1944 3225 (L48 & 598 (L43)

1945 538 (L48)

Left on 10.4 about 1700 of all types (mostly L48).

Panther

1943 1848

1944 3777

1945 507

Left on 10.4.45 were 627 of all types, most in the east (564).

Can't believe I typed all this. Hope the figures are semi-correct

[Stoffel]

like I said dont blame me for typing errors

must be because the author of my book used two yaers production tables

[Stoffel]

I wonder what happened to all these left over tanks,seems strange to me that most countries after the war like the netherlands,bought these old shermans from the US instead of using Panthers for instance

[Jarmo]

Better to have a Sherman than a blown up Panther? I don't think there were too many left over Panthers in running condition...

Besides, the americans would say the Sherman's the best tank around. And they did win, so why doubt it..

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Jarmo ]</p>

[Pzman]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jarmo:

Besides, the americans would say the Sherman's the best tank around. And they did win, so why doubt it..

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Jarmo ]<hr></blockquote>

They only were able to do so because the Americans/Allies could make at least 20-30 tanks for ever one the Germans made, after 1943. I am counting Russian tank production in my numbers. And they made what, over 30,000 T-34s during the war?

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]</p>

[Stoffel]

That is a very simple way to put it.

But not quite true

Overall the Panther is one of the best medium class tanks build IMHO

hard to kill ,fast and a good gun

germans suffered more from supplyproblems(spare parts/fuel/ammo) than losses by enemy fire if you ask me

[Iron Chef Sakai]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

As to the effectiveness of the Sturmgeschutz, , SP guns etc, an example is that from, August thru Nov 1944 Sturmgeschutz, & Panzerjager were credited in an German report, with causing 22 - 32% of the the OPFOR tank losses, compared to German tanks which were credited with 22 - 26% of the OPFOR tank losses.

Regards, John Waters

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]<hr></blockquote>Patton was a blow hard, and probably would have wet his pants if he came face to face with an enemy soldier pointing a rifle at him, never mind a tank

[PzKpfw 1]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas:

John, I presume that would include towed guns?<hr></blockquote>

Andreas, it refered to Sturmgeschutz & self propeled Panzerjager only IIRC.

Regards, John Waters

[Andreas]

Don't know what this has to do with SP guns, but AFAIK the French Army used the Panther after the war for some years. Could be wrong though.

The Swiss army used the Hetzer until the 1970s, IIRC.

I guess a big problem would have been spares and servicing. The Germans had to switch their armament factories to civilian products, and the factories in the east were taken to the Soviet Union, lock stock and barrel. Also, most of the surviving Panthers were on the eastern front, and would not have been available to any western nation.

[Andreas]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

Andreas, it refered to Sturmgeschutz & self propeled Panzerjager only IIRC.

Regards, John Waters<hr></blockquote>

Thanks John. How was the rest of the kills distributed, does the report say?

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas:

Don't know what this has to do with SP guns, but AFAIK the French Army used the Panther after the war for some years. Could be wrong though.

The Swiss army used the Hetzer until the 1970s, IIRC.

<hr></blockquote>

The French certainly used the Panther for a few years after the war. They built the gun in their own factories for use in their own new tanks designs (can't recall which one but I believe they mounted it on an armored car that was used by the Israelies. I'm pretty sure one of the Super Shermans (M50 I think) carried the French made KwK 42 as well. Didn't the Swiss restart productiono f the Hetzer? I think the new version was named the G-3.

[Stoffel]

Hmm I saw recently on a norwegian site that norway used a german made tank until late in the 60's thought it was the Mk III

[Captain Wacky]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai:

Patton was a blow hard, and probably would have wet his pants if he came face to face with an enemy soldier pointing a rifle at him, never mind a tank<hr></blockquote>

Patton killed several men in Mexico with his pistol while they were shooting at him, including one shot which killed a running Mexican at 50m.

[Stoffel]

a running man at 50 meters with a pistol??

not sure if I would believe that

thats hard to achieve with todays pistols,and with these old 6 shooters this seems impossible to me.

they would have been at 5 meters I think

[Redwolf]

Back to the original subject: it is to be expected that SP guns, StuGs and Jagdpanzer have most of the kills.

Real tanks are not meant to fight other tanks. Higher HQs will usually try to mass them outside a defensive front line. Ideally, they would attack in places were no enemy armour is to be expected.

They just don't have as many targets to shoot at as the tank hunter units parceld out for defensive purposes and/or TD reserve formations. And defense for the Germans in late WW2 means being attacked by lots of tanks, partly undersuppoered by infantry. Whoever is in the front line at the initial onslash will get the most kills. And that were StuGs, Marders to Hetzers, some Jagdpanzer IV in high profile tank units.

[Jarmo]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Panzerman:

They only were able to do so because the Americans/Allies could make at least 20-30 tanks for ever one the Germans made, after 1943. I am counting Russian tank production in my numbers. And they made what, over 30,000 T-34s during the war? <hr></blockquote>

Heh, well I wouldn't call the Sherman the best tank in the world. All I'm saying is that the matter might not have been completely clear to the decision makers back in the 40's.

Nowadays it's easy to think everybody knew their tank armour/gun effectiveness tables of all the WWII tanks. The kind of figures we don't know of current tanks. Classified information and all that...