This has gotta be fixed!

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Next create an equal American force. (Same numbers of infantry, tanks, etc...)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The point GI Tom was trying to make (not to be confused with the point on top of his head, but that's another story) is that the NUMBER of units can't be compared. Each unit is priced according to it's capabilities, that's why an Elite squad will cost more than a Green squad or a Panther more than a Sherman. Therefore if you buy 2000 points of Panthers you'll be able to buy MORE Shermans with the same 2000 points. It may be (I'm too lazy to check) that US squads cost more than German squads, but if so it's because the US squad is MORE CAPABLE than the German squad and should cost more. Without trying to be insulting (a hard thing for a Cesspooler to do) I'd tend to agree that you had a couple of bad experiences and are making unsubstantiated generalizations.

Joe

[Jumbo]

Ok, Thanks to all who participated in this thread. I have a few things to think about.

Peace to all in this holiday season.

Jumbo

[Major Tom]

Take a look at the TOE's in the game. You will notice that US forces cost significantly more. For example, I usually play British/Commonwealth, and have noticed that a US Company costs significantly more than a British/Commonwealth company. HOWEVER, this is primarily due to squad numbers being 12 (vs. 10), being equipped with Semi-Auto M1 Garands, the fact that each Company has its own Heavy Weapons platoon (3 Zooks, 3 MMG, 3 60mm Mortors) vs. 3 British PIAT's and 2" Mortors per Company. Take a look at the TOE of JoePrivate's example. The German Companies have virtually no organic AT, Artillery, or HMG compliments!

US Infantry is more expensive, as, as a whole it is much more effective. Sure, a single German Motorized squad is more powerful than a US 44/45 Infantry Squad, but, a US Company is more powerful than a German Motorized Company.

Regarding tanks, it has been mentioned before that just taking a TANK vs. TANK comparison does not signify a tank's true value. Shermans are much better at taking out infantry formations than any other German main battle tank. Their turret rotation and rate of fire are also superior. As has already been mentioned, it doesn't matter of the US has a 37mm or a 76mm, Mark IV tanks will die fast and a lot if they get too close.

The problem that many people face, is, that it is EASIER to use the German forces, as, individually they are superior to an individual enemy. It is easier to move around one squad than it is to move around a coordinated platoon or company. Gaining the experience on how to move a combined arm force is important to successfully fighting with an Allied army. The strength of British/Commonwealth/American force are in their diversity of weapons in their Platoon/Company organization. Use the 2"/60mm mortors to supress enemy troops. They are fully equipped with PIAT's and Zooks to take out roaving Panzers.

One thing that I have noticed in PBEM QB's, is, that the Allied forces tend to get more Artillery spotters when the auto select option is used. Using artillery officers, and the Allies have some of the best ones (British 3" spotters are cheap and deadly! Never go to war without them!), are important to defeating German Infantry, and even these pesky heavily armed Armoured Cars. If you want to see the reverse argument (that German tanks and stuff are too inferior) try buying some M5 Stuarts instead of M4 Shermans. They will rip apart your Pz II Lynx, Panzer IV's, as well as those darned 50mm Puma's.

IF the German force has its costs increased, or the Allied force has their costs decreased, EXPERT Allied players will have a field day with ANY German opponent. I have won and lost with both the Allies and Germans in many PBEM games. I see no problem in costs, and I credit my defeats to poor positioning and ill planned strategy.

[Vanir]

Ok, I set up a 5000 pt QB, meeting engagement. I purchased things the way I would have in an actual 50-60 turn game, which is why you don't see any crewed MGs or on-board mortars (I only use them in defense). All units are regular quality. Prices are for November '44.

Germans:

18 x 44 Rifle Squad (162 men)

18 Shrecks

6 x 81mm mortar FO

3 x 120 mm mortar FO

5 Mk V Panther G (late)

3 Sd Kfz 7/2 37mm flak

12 x PSW 234/3 AC

4967 pts total

Americans:

18 x 44 Rifle Squad (216 men)

18 Zooks

6 x 81 mm mortar FO

2 x 4.2 inch mortar FO

4 Easy Eight Sherman tanks

6 M10 Wolverine TDs

7 M3A1 HTs

4973 pts total

Note that the US gets 1500 pts in the armor category while the Germans get only 1000.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Moon:

The German player can choose several lightly armored vehicles with "big guns", whereas the US player has little beside the Greyhound in his "vehicles" slot that has more than some machineguns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a good point. Those 12 SPW 234/3s would be a pain for the US player. Perhaps the M8 HMC should be moved from the armor category to the vehicle category. If there is any imbalance it is here. Of course, the US does have much better halftracks. It's a close call.

Otherwise it looks pretty even to me.

------------------

You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 12-31-2000).]

[Major Tom]

Know what is a good counter to German armoured cars with heavy guns? The Daimler and the Greyhound. These tanks have 37mm and 40mm Guns, fully capable of nailing the light skinned Halftracks and Armoured Cars. I am in a PBEM agaisnt a British player with the Auto Select giving him a wack of Daimlers, which gave my armoured cars and halftracks a beating. They shouldn't be sent against German MBT's, but, they can clean up the light AFV's.

Sure, Puma's can take out Shermans, but, what can't?

The thing about the German units, is, they tend to be VERY specialized. Either they are good at killing Tanks and bad at killing Infantry or vice versa. Allied vehicles tend to be more universal, neither supreme at one aspect, but, not pitiful at another. Shermans are probably the best all-round tank. Capable of killing the latest armour but still a good Infantry Tank. Their Infantry is better for both long, short, Infantry and AT opponents. German squads are usually more specialized (SMG Squads, HMG Squads, Rifle Squads, etc...). This is why Allied units are more expensive then they appear. They ALWAYS look sub-par (in comparison to German opponents) for whatever job they do, BUT, they can perform any job with good effect, this is where German forces tend to suffer. Try using a Tiger or Puma to kill a bunch of Allied Infantry!

[Guest Zaraath]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GI Tom:

Jumbo, your post makes absolutely NO sense.

How is there ALWAYS an unfair advantage for the Germans? [...] you say we HAVE to give the Allied player 10-25% point advantage.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Germans DO have an advantage upgrading experience level, Regular to Veteran is about

a 15% cost compared to the 25% the Americans take. They also have better tanks, although not unbeatable, and more squad firepower per point of cost.

I can play with either side, in fact all my (RD) ladder wins have been as the Allies, but the Germans do have an advantage in QBs.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Major Tom:

Try using a Tiger or Puma to kill a bunch of Allied Infantry!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the Tiger is an exceptionally good infantry killer.

It's the tank killing bit where it's not so good.

Can't hit anything and can't kill the big ones all the Quick battles

are full of. But the gun kills infantry real dead, MG's have plenty

of ammo, and it's near invulnerable to piats and zooks.

[aka_tom_w]

OK....

I would like to comment here as well.

What Allied factor (unit, weapon whatever?) counter balances the German Panzerfaust?

Those Damn things are plentiful and everybody and their brother as at least one or two of them.

I Prefer playing the Allies, and I like the British, but in a tight fight or an "even" Meeting engagement I think the balance falls slightly in favour of the Germans because of the abundance of 'fausts?

I can see this issue from all sides. Perhaps the Allies units are over priced? Steve and Charles are CLEARLY on record as stating that they are not. But the german tank killing ability with those short range 'fausts can be VERY irritating.

But on the other hand Close assaulting tanks with German infantry with a few 'fausts in their back pocket sure is FUN!.

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-31-2000).]

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

This whole topic is sort of odd to me because I usually play US in QB's, and I have never felt like I didn't get enough points -- if anything, I've always had a sneaking suspicion that Germans were overpriced, although that may simply be because I've played allied so much I don't know how to play Germans right.

But look at the squads -- US squads are 12, German squads only have 9, or, not infrequently, 8 men. While the firepower may be about the same, that won't matter if the squads are hit by artillery or long range tank fire. If German motorized infantry squad takes four casualties from artillery, it is at half strength and, while still battle capable, is just barely so. If a US squad takes 4 casualties, it still has as many men as the Mot. Inf squad started out with.

I understand the absence of Pfs, but I'd much rather have a .50 cal MG (in general, not as a substitute for Pfs). You can't rely on Pfs the way you can on Schrecks or Zooks, and the range is usually so short that you shouldn't get a shot at a prudent allied player. On the other hand, I've taken out lots of those pesky German HTs with .50 cal. fire, it's lethal a long way, and is good against infantry if there are no better targets. Hard to use on the attack, although I set them up as flank protection. And that German HT with the 75 has some ridiculously small number of shells anyway -- 13 or 15 or 18 rounds.

And American artillery is just wonderful. If I'm buying, I rarely buy more than 81mm mortars, but they're fantastic -- some ungodly number of rounds (150? 200?), and a quick response time.

I like Shermans a lot, too. Not against Tigers or Panthers, particularly, but against infantry or Mk IVs, they are fine.

I should add the caveat that I have not played a QB larger than 3000 points, so I don't know how things work out that size battle or larger.

You can find a lot of very detailed tactical advice on the forum. I don't think that I have a sufficient skill level to use a lot of it, but here are some quick tips for playing the allies in QBs. YMMV.

1. Depending on the parameters of the battle, have a mix of TDs and tanks. It's not bad to have a 75 Sherm or two for anti infantry, but that's up to you.

2. Hide your tanks and TDs (and HTs, etc) at the beginning. Don't just use the Hide command; actually hide them behind some woods or something. Then use the Hide command to minimize any sound contact.

3. Advance with your infantry, using .50 cals to cover the flanks, if this makes sense on your terrain.

4. Once your infantry has seen enemy armor, try to get it to button up with MG fire or mortars fire, and advance your TDs and tanks to take it out (you should probably advance them in a platoon sized unit). Ideally, you have the advantage here because you've identified his tanks and he doesn't know where your tanks are. Try for flank shots, if possible.

5. Infantry: unless you have Airborne or Engineer troops, try not to get in close combat with uninjured German troops -- there's a good chance that they have more automatic weapons than you and will eat you up at extreme close range. (But don't stand off too far, they also have LMGs with long range). Try for around 150 meters. Then try to hit them with artillery, espcially if they are in trees.

[Jumbo]

I want to modify my earlier statements. I expressed them as though the differences in gameplay were profound. AFTER continued research and after reviewing my thoughts on how I used the American tanks, I have to say that the difference isn't as great as I earlier believed. I believe that I've learned a lot.

Don't get me wrong, in a 3000 point QB with both sides enjoying veteran troops in an armor type of battle, the difference was about 152 points in favor of the Germans when trying REAL hard to make sure both sides had similar OOBs. That 152 points is basically a lone Sherman or such. There IS a difference. It IS there.

While my personal gaming hasn't enjoyed a very wide variety of opponents as some folks, I have enjoyed a rather comfortable record. I believe I've only lost 3 PBEM or TCP games. So, it wasn't sour grapes. I play for fun afterall and my manhood isn't challenged when I lose at a game. I've been wargaming for more than 26 years.

I'd like to thank all who responded in this message thread. I've learned that inflexibility is a fools errand and nothing more.

May all shots at your armor result in a ricochet. That is -until you play against me.

Jumbo

[Manchildstein]

if anything, the allies have the advantage.

just my opinion

andy

[Manchildstein]

--And that German HT with the 75 has some ridiculously small number of shells anyway -- 13 or 15 or 18 rounds.

--

actually, you speak of the spw250/8. Take a look at the spw 251/9... has 49 rounds of capacity if i'm not mistaken.

..she 'explodes' really good too...

andy

[Manchildstein]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There IS a difference. It IS there.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i've been under the impression for some time that in meeting action (same points) QBs the americans are 'easier' to play than the germans.

the best way to get around all of this is to eschew quick battles in favor of pre-designed, balanced scenarios. then you won't have to worry about points.

in my experience, quick battles are a free-for-all and objective evidence is difficult to attain, given that most if not all qb players wont to 'cherry pick;' that is get the best price/performance ratio on a given unit.

for instance, the german sdkfz aa halftracks are probably worth more than you pay for them.

the american m8 hmc has a _high_ price/performance ratio. the germans really have nothing to counter it.

the m3a1 halftrack - especially when used en masse - with its .50 cal will knock out all most the german armored cars and halftracks in short order. the psw234 series may last a little longer, but those die pretty easily too.

so much of what happens in a quick battle is determined by how the two players try to 'outguess' the other in unit purchases, and the terrain and weather conditions.

so in the end, perhaps you are correct. i will have to 're-assess my previous assessment.'

andy

[Monte99]

Geez, Jumbo knows how to set a topic on fire anyway.

But somebody on this board, I forget who, disposed of this sort of debate with an elegant observation: In CMBO, as in life, you're expected to win with what you've got.

------------------

"Arms are my ornaments, warfare my repose." - Don Quixote

[Monte99]

Geez, Jumbo knows how to set a topic on fire anyway.

But somebody on this board, I forget who, disposed of this sort of debate with an elegant observation: In CMBO, as in life, you're expected to win with what you've got.

------------------

"Arms are my ornaments, warfare my repose." - Don Quixote

[retarded_keydet]

Heh nothing like a realistic solution like that!

------------------

There was a long silence of rememberance for the dead, to which I added these names:

Ernst Neubach, Lensen, Wiener, Wesreidau, Prinz, Solma, Hoth, Olensheim, Sperlovski, Smellens, Dunde, Kellerman, Freivitch, Ballers, Frosch, Woortenbeck, Siemenlies...

I refuse to add Paula to that list, and I shall never forget the names of Hals, or Lindberg, or Pferham, or Wollers. Their memory lves within me.

There is another man, whom I must forget. He was called Guy Sajer.

[Ghost of the 90th]

Wow, everyone jumped down poor Jumbos' throat!

Jumbo,I was going to post something very similar. Glad you were here to catch all the flak

I have had no success so far with the Allies. I have managed 2 draws and lost approx 8 times. I have never played a human opponent with Axis.

Here are some of my observations:

1 US tanks need to stay way the **** away from any Ger squad. Those damned PZfausts make every GER unit basically an Anti-Tank unit, unlike the Allies.

2 Although Ger squads maybe smaller they generally possess more firepower upclose due to there amount of machine guns.

3 In quick battles the GERMANS vehicle list is quite superior to the USA's. Thus they have more 75 mm guns running around then the USA. The 251/16 are nasty too. At least in a town and in the hands of an intelligent defender.

4 Ger armor is superior and without those thinskinned TD 76's and Tungsten rnds the Allies can forget it. One KT can dominate a whole QB. Shermans are only good from the flanks. And if you miss, goodbye.

Now all that being said, I maybe losing for other reasons, like;

1 I maybe to new, and have not climbed the learning curve yet

2 Maybe I am not using the USA units correctly and in their proper roles.

3 Maybe this game is better as a true historical game. Hey the USA had inferior ****, just more of it and the Germans were already defeated and did not have the resources to withstand our onslaught. Had they never tangled with the USSR and got sucked into that nightmare, their is probably no way short of nukes the West was going to be able to defeat them. Hey, I am an American who lost family in WWII Euor theater and I admit this freely.

4 the guy I play is a vet at this game and has a ****ing Genius IQ and knows more of military tactics and history then many. Makes nice scenarios too.

5 I got to find some opponents who is as bad as me Then I maybe I will learn to win with Allies.

Till, then anyone know anygood essays for HOW TO WIN w/ALLIES

I am sick of getting spanked. Maybe I should try Germans.

FlamPanzer me at will! Like a Jumbo I got thick skin.

------------------

Ghost of the 90th

---------------------"The boundries of a country are marked by the graves of her soldiers."-Napoleon

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghost of the 90th:

5 I got to find some opponents who is as bad as me Then I maybe I will learn to win with Allies.

Till, then anyone know anygood essays for HOW TO WIN w/ALLIES

I am sick of getting spanked. Maybe I should try Germans.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He he... I love the guys that think that switching to the Germans will improve their chances of winning. The fact is that CM is extremely balanced when it comes to unit point values. In other words, you can get a equally deadly force with the allies as with the axis.

The key to victory is knowing the strengths and weaknesses of both the allied and axis units and using this knowledge with the best tactics as possible... and a little luck.

[Gremlin]

Ghost of the 90th, a couple points about your points

1) I'd recommend keeping any tanks away from any squads. German squads may have Fausts, but a US rifle company has a weapons platoon with three zooks, and British squads have the organic PIAT's. Tanks have much longer range than personal AT weapons, so why give the latter a chance? (I know terrain doesn't always allow overwatch from hundreds of meters away, but you take my point.)

3) The Germans may have more 75's driving around, but frankly (coming from someone who mainly plays the Axis), a lot of them suck They're often short 75's with relatively little ammo mounted in thin-skinned vehicles lacking fully traversing turrets. Like Shermans, they can be quite effective for infantry support, as you imply, but unless they're quick and lucky, they stand no chance against a tank.

***

Many people have spoken about German squad sizes in this thread. True, they're generally relatively small, but the German Sturmkompanie has Sturmgruppe squads of thirteen men with massive firepower: 283 172 87 43 0. It also has a heavy weapons platoon with two HMG's and mortars.

------------------

War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman

[Diceman]

Before they fixed the "bug", I used to set up mirrored games of randomly generated maps. That is to say my opponent and I would play two quick battle games, each taking a swat as the allied and axis commander. I almost always won or lost both games. I see little problem with the point system as is, and none for which I can think of a better method than the very thoughtful one in place.

P.S. BTS: I'd like to see a method of having mirrored quick battles implemented, pretty please? The old method of saving before selecting a country was functional, but I understand why you took out this "undocumented" and unmonitored feature.

------------------

Pair-O-Dice

"Once a Diceman, Always a Diceman."

[Tiger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wow, everyone jumped down poor Jumbos' throat!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Jumbo saying that "I bet the only players that would object to this are players who only play Germans", probably did not endure him to alot of long-time players, Axis or Allied.

While some German infantry units have panzerfausts, American squads have rifle grenades which are very effective taking out German tanks at close range.

The Germans have no equivalent .50 caliber heavy mg; the MG42 just won't penetrate Allied Armored cars nor half-tracks very often. The puppchen at-gun would be the nearest equivalent I guess, but it gets taken out as easy as other field guns. It does have decent movement rates though and can usually stay fairly close in infantry advances.

I would have liked to see some of the Allied half-tracks mounting field guns or quad .50s in the vehicle list but maybe BTS ran out of time or they just weren't in use much.

john

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 01-01-2001).]

[GI Tom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

Next create an equal American force. (Same numbers of infantry, tanks, etc...)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The point GI Tom was trying to make (not to be confused with the point on top of his head, but that's another story) is that the NUMBER of units can't be compared. Each unit is priced according to it's capabilities, that's why an Elite squad will cost more than a Green squad or a Panther more than a Sherman. Therefore if you buy 2000 points of Panthers you'll be able to buy MORE Shermans with the same 2000 points. It may be (I'm too lazy to check) that US squads cost more than German squads, but if so it's because the US squad is MORE CAPABLE than the German squad and should cost more. Without trying to be insulting (a hard thing for a Cesspooler to do) I'd tend to agree that you had a couple of bad experiences and are making unsubstantiated generalizations.

Joe

Ahh, Joe, Thank you. That was precisely the point I was trying to make, which was the point JUMBO listed from his first post. There is NO way to compare numbers of units evenly in this game. It boils down to the capabilities of each and how you use them on the field. Jumbo stated "There is ALWAYS a Battlefield asset advantage for the Germans" and I was refuting that point. And Tiger made an excellent point too in his post.

And finally, Jumbo, the word "Boy" that I used was not meant in the sense of your age, just in slang form as in "Boy-oh-Boy", that kind of thing. I apologize if it offended you.

GI Tom

------------------

To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich.

[Jumbo]

TRUCE already!!! The white flag went up a long time ago.

What's it gonna take???

What do you want? Blood????????????

[Major Tom]

Give yourself some time and experience.

When I first started, back in December 1999, I was getting slaughtered left and right by the multitude of German Panzerschrecks in Chance Encounter. Playing this as the primrary demo for almost 1/2 a year in PBEM was a real asset to fine tuning infantry and armour tactics. Eventually, I learned how to utilize US Armour so that they will survive against German AT and Tanks. Keep them, actually ANY AFV, away from forests/builings that might have enemy troops in them.

Panzerfausts aren't that spectacular either. Most of the German Platoons substitute Panzerfausts for Panzerschrecks. Panzerschrecks are much better for armoured ambush, as, if discovered you only lose a 2 man team, not an entire squad. A few losses will really sap the strength of a German squad, while British/American squads can tend to take more casualties and be more effective.

Sure, the Germans might have a lot more interesting AFV's with different types of weaponry, but, put those specialized halftracks up against something they weren't designed to fight and they won't last long.

[Guest Big Time Software]

OK, some thoughts...

This has been debated several times before, in great detail. Not only general balancing, like Meeting Engagements, but also for specific units (like squads and Shermans). I think I can safely say that at the end of each debate the overwhelming majority opinion is that CM has it right and the one or two people complaining either haven't played enough or need some more tactical experience.

An example of the latter is Ghost of the 90th's comment about Panzerfausts (BTW, knock off the swearing). The correct tactic is to never get your armor that cose. It doesn't matter what side you are playing or what vehicles you are using in whatever quantity. Getting AFVs within 100-200m of enemy infantry is just asking for losses. So if the Allied player isn't doing this, he deserves to lose. The number of points is totally irrelevant.

Some more comments from Ghost of the 90th that illustrates why there is no problem:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 I maybe to new, and have not climbed the learning curve yet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most likely true. If you played the Germans vs. an experienced player, you would probably lose just as often.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2 Maybe I am not using the USA units correctly and in their proper roles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most likely true. Each side requires slightly different tactics. If you try to play the Americans like you would the Germans, all things being equal you will get spanked.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>3 Maybe this game is better as a true historical game. Hey the USA had inferior ****, just more of it and the Germans were already defeated and did not have the resources to withstand our onslaught.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Partly true. At the tactical level, however, the overwhelming material advantage the Allies had was very often not evident. But in an evenly matched battle, as CM generates, luck and skill determine the outcome of who wins. Like many who have weighed in here, I too have absolutely no problems beating the crap out of people playing as the Allies

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>4 the guy I play is a vet at this game and has a Genius IQ and knows more of military tactics and history then many. Makes nice scenarios too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since CM rewards sound and historically correct tactics, all else being equal the player that knows more about the proper use of tactics will most likely win. And it shouldn't be any other way.

There are also a bunch of misconceptions that can give the apperance of some sort of bias. The big one is that units are priced based on their capabilities, not on their production numbers. If anybody is interested in why this is significant, do a Search on "rarity".

Another example of a misconception was posted by Zaraath:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Germans DO have an advantage upgrading experience level, Regular to Veteran is about a 15% cost compared to the 25% the Americans take.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure why you belive this, because it simply is not true. The cost modification for Experience levels is the same for both sides, therefore the Germans have no advantage.

So... while some people might have the OPINION that there is an inbalance, I and others will strongly disagree. And because there is more "evidence" (like the RD ladder game results) that our position is correct, there will be absolutely no fundamental changes to the point system for CM1. CM2 will be done along the same lines, but with the addition of an OPTIONAL "rarity" system.

Steve