Does anyone know if the Brummbar and Maus will be a part of CM2?

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

I know there were only 2 Maus' used in the last days of the war (Prototypes on the eastern front), but CMBO had a couple of obscure vehicles in it as well. :confused:

[Stoffel]

there were no maus vehicles used in actual fighting.

they will not be in CM 2,the brummbar will be.

If you do a search you can find the topics on the discussion about these two vehicles

[Schrullenhaft]

The Brummbar should make an appearance, but the Maus shouldn't. Though there are conflicting reports about one actually seeing combat, the general consensus has been that it isn't worth modelling. There were even heated arguments about the Soviet IS/JS-III's infantry tanks being included since it is highly questionable that they saw combat in Berlin (they were issued to some Tank Corps in April '45). I'm not sure if it will make it in or not, since the textures were done quite awhile ago for it, but the model hadn't been completed at the time of the debates over its inclusion.

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

We have Super Pershings in CM:BO

Only 25 were produced til end of the war, and non of them saw action on the European battlefield.

[Shipmonkey25]

Belton Coopers book "Death Traps", mentions the one Super Pershing in Europe did see a least one battle. It fired a some sort of armour vechile, which the troops never went to identify, blowing it to smithereens, causing a immediate german withdrall

[109 Gustav]

BTS's policy for including rare vehicles goes something like this:

1. Did it see action?

2. How hard will it be to program?

3. Will it improve the game/be cool?

The super pershing and sherm croc were both rare vehicles, but they qualify on all three counts. The super pershing model and texture is almost the same as the regular persh, and the sherm croc borrows the churchhill croc's trailer. Both vehicles saw a little action, and both improve the game. The M16 quad .50, on the other hand, was not included because it was too hard to program and BTS was facing a deadline.

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

1. Did it see action?

2. How hard will it be to program?

3. Will it improve the game/be cool?

<hr></blockquote>

And about the Maus:

1) Not confirmed rumours

2) Not more difficult then any other???

3) No, it will not be cool. It's slow, super heavy - so will bog each five minutes, and IMO not so immortal as people think, especially to hollow charges.

[Stoffel]

Instead of a Maus I rather would see the Panther II if rare vehicles would be alowed

easy to code too,since its a Panther with an 88 gun

[Micheal Wittman]

If the below statement by Puff The Magic Dragon is

true.

"We have Super Pershings in CM:BO

Only 25 were produced til end of the war, and none of them saw action on the European battlefield"

Then why in "Heck" are they even in the game?!!

For one, I have had to fight agianst these things

on numerous occasions, and as people say "IMO" if

it wasn't there, then it should'nt be there!

:confused:

[Wolfe]

As Gustav said, the Super Persh made it in because the model was essentially done for it (same as Persh, but with a longer gun), and they only needed to change the stats on the tank. Basically, it was done because it was easy to do.

BTS has said that prototypes like the Panther II, Panther F, etc. won't be in CMBB. The Maus was too rare and the IS3 may or may not make it in. But somehow I don't think that CMBB will be suffering from a lack of AFVs.

- Chris

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon:

We have Super Pershings in CM:BO

Only 25 were produced til end of the war, and non of them saw action on the European battlefield.<hr></blockquote>

I thought only 2 were made, rather like the Maus.

[sturmtiger101]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Stoffel:

Instead of a Maus I rather would see the Panther II if rare vehicles would be alowed

easy to code too,since its a Panther with an 88 gun <hr></blockquote>

Sorry Stoffel,

Afraid there's no such beast as a Panther mounting an '88'. Per Mr T Jentz in "Panther, The Quest For Combat Supremacey. " The Panther II was an attempt to up-armour the Panther hull with 100mm front and 60 mm sides. One prototype hull was produced and was captured intact by the USA at the end of the war. It resides today at the Patton Museum of Armour, in Ft Knox, Ky. The vehicle mounted an Ausf A/G turm with the L/70 cal 75mm main armament. There was an Ausf F model under development that was a new "schmallturm " turret mounted on the Ausf G hull, but it too would have been armed with the L/70 cal 75mm, not the '88'. Two partially completed prototype turrets were completed before the war ended, but no Ausf F as such was ever produced or supplied to combat troops even for field testing, ergo, none saw combat as none ever really existed. Fabulous flights of fantasy I'm afraid. My apologies if I burst any bubbles, old man.

Cheers,

Eric Tuggle

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: sturmtiger101 ]</p>

[Stoffel]

ah you are right!

I saw a picture of a Tiger with a prototype turret that looked like a Panther turret but with an 88 mm gun

The turret wasn't build though.

Thats why I got confused

But its nice to have dreams

[Mattias]

Hmm..

Did Jentz specifically say that the 8.8 cm gun was not to be used?

In short the Spielberger (“Der Panzer-Kampfwagen Panther und seine Abarten”) perspective is:

There was a Panther F planned, fitted with the Schmalturm. This turret was eventually to carry a 8.8 cm KwK 43 L/71.

The Panther II design consisted of a newly designed hull and turret, and was supposed to be armed with a 8.8 cm KwK 43 L/71 gun. The Panther II prototype captured by American forces carried the Panther G turret for trial purposes, as the work on the real Panther II turret did not start in earnest until late February 1945.

From this point of view it was just a matter of time before a Panther, either in original or Ausf. II would be fitted with a 8.8 cm gun. Then again, beyond wooden mockups, none were actually built.

M.

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Mattias ]</p>

[Wolfe]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sturmtiger101:

Afraid there's no such beast as a Panther mounting an '88'.<hr></blockquote>

JagdPanther. Sorry, couldn't resist.

- Chris

[PiggDogg]

I hope that BTS does not waste their time for CM2 development by including such vehicles.

Cheers, Richard

[PzKpfw 1]

[Q]Originally posted by sturmtiger101:

There was an Ausf F model under development that was a new "schmallturm " turret mounted on the Ausf G hull, but it too would have been armed with the L/70 cal 75mm, not the '88'. Two partially completed prototype turrets were completed before the war ended, but no Ausf F as such was ever produced or supplied to combat troops even for field testing, ergo, none saw combat as none ever really existed. Fabulous flights of fantasy I'm afraid. My apologies if I burst any bubbles, old man.

Cheers,

Eric Tuggle

[/q]

Actualy concerning the Panther Ausf F, [1]4 incomplete Panther Ausf F chassis, were found mixed in with Ausf.G chassis assembly lines at Dalimar-Benz after the factory was captured as well as Ausf.F turrets.

If any Panther Ausf.F were completed they would have been issued from April 20 - 23rd 1945 to II,/Pz.Regt.2 for deployment in the defence of Berlin. [2] Even if any Ausf F were completed they would have been missing key turret componets Ie, gunsights, & range finders.

[1]See: Jentz Thomas L. Germany's Panther Tank p.113

[2]See: Jentz Tom, Doyle Hillary, Baderocke Mike. Panther Variants 1942 - 1945 p.10

Regards, John Waters

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]</p>

[Richard Morgan]

I once fought a Steel Panthers World at War scenario featuring Maus. Basically, you just had to treat the thing as a slightly mobile pill-box. I managed to find a position for it which gave a good field of fire. The enemy (Russian) just came at it in vast numbers and carnage ensued!!!

Basically, Maus was so over-armoured that it was really only vulnerable to close assault. (A shaped charge up against a hatch would be enough to wreck anyone's day.) It was fun to field the behemoth - ONCE. Can't say I'd like to make a habit of it though. No doubt BTS would concur! By the way, haven't the Russians still got an intact Maus in one of their tank museums?

Regards,

Richard.

[l3w53r]

yeah...played that one too.

only the two maus's survived the scenario though.

I think it's cool, but I also think they could also spend the effort modelling something else(umm...sturmoviks?hehe)

I've read there were two prototypes built, and operable, one having both 128 and 75 mm,the other having a dummy 128 and a real 75.

Both of 'em got broken and was overrun by russians though.

And yeah, they assembled another one from 9 other Maus's, it's in Moscow.

[Warphead]

Some pictures of the Maus:

http://www.jagdtiger.de/GermanTanks/Maus-01.htm

[sturmtiger101]

The Panther II design consisted of a newly designed hull and turret, and was supposed to be armed with a 8.8 cm KwK 43 L/71 gun. The Panther II prototype captured by American forces carried the Panther G turret for trial purposes, as the work on the real Panther II turret did not start in earnest until late February 1945.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> <hr></blockquote>

Mattias,

Hope I'm not confusing anyone... Regarding the Panther II, though, this was a completly separate project from the later development of the Panther Ausf F. The II was a developmental dead - end after the first hull was produced for trials, as it was decided to focus instead on developing the original hull and chassis. This decision was reached by Wa Pruef 6, the Panzerkommision, and M.A.N. in a series of meetings culminating in May of '43. T. Jentz, Germany's Panther .Tank...1995.

Disscussion and research was on - going for development of a turret mounting the L/71 cal 88mm for the Panther Ausf F, however no date was set for this turret's introduton to series production. Indeed this particular design was still very much on the drawing boards and there were concerns regarding the loading and servicing of this weapon in a turret that could fit the Panther chassis. A wooden mock up, as well as scetches and drawings, had been made toward this proposal, but this does not mean that a Panther mounting an '88' was enevitable. Again, in the main, I'm paraphrasing Mr Jentz and his research.

All else aside, what this means for we fans of CMBO and CMBB is that, IMHO, it's unrealistic for a Panther armed with the '88' to make an appearance, even an Ausf F for that matter. I haven't seen evidence that either vehicle type ever reached more than " a few partially assembeled chassis " . A shame as I would dearly enjoy employing one in a twilight, end of the war type scenario.

I am enjoying this topic and all the contributors who are posting responses, it is an interesting debate.

Cheers,

Eric Tuggle :cool:

[sturmtiger101]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Wolfe:

JagdPanther. Sorry, couldn't resist.

- Chris<hr></blockquote>

Wolfe, old fellow, I'm afraid you are quite right!

The JagdPanther did indeed give the Panther family an '88' armed afv. Good point and thank you for helping me keep my points from being ever too serious! I can be a stuffy old bastard... and a gamey one too!

Regards,

Eric Tuggle

[sturmtiger101]

PzKw I,

Mr Waters, thank you for your comments and information with resources. I have been a fan of the PzKw III and of the Tiger I for so long that I am just experiancing further interest in the Panther series only in the last year. Appreciate your help here.

Regards,

Eric Tuggle