Daisy chain mines

[Kingfish]

Let me start off by saying that I'm not asking for a patch, new coding or work on CM to be interrupted. I'm just curious as to what your opinions would be to the following question;

What are your thoughts on having the ability to place daisy chain mines during a battle, not just during setup?

Of all the units listed in the fortifications column they are by far the easiest to deploy. This leads me to believe that they would be held in reserve, and then deployed once the enemy's main axis of advance was identified.

Here's how I picture it:

During setup you get a daisy chain mine. If you have any prime movers availible then you get the option to deploy then during battle. Otherwise, without transport you can only deploy them during setup. If you choose to deploy them during battle then you embark them on the mover, along with a squad. The squad now is equipped with the daisy chain. When the time comes to deploy them you unload the squad and order them to string out the mines. Once placed they cannot be moved. This works much like the movement / embarking restrictions of the German Flak 88s in the game.

Again, I'm not asking for this to be included in the game. Just curious to see what everyone thinks.

[Leonidas]

I don't know anything about how daisy-chain mines work or how they were deployed, but I sure wouldn't want to have to lay high explosives in the middle of a battle, in under five minutes.

I don't think it fits in the scale of CM.

[Kingfish]

but I sure wouldn't want to have to lay high explosives in the middle of a battle, in under five minutes.

How long does it take to disembark and setup a large calibur field gun in CM (for instance a Flak 88)? How many high explosives rounds come with that gun? Is the task of laying a daisy chain harder and more dangerous than a Flak 88?

I don't think it fits in the scale of CM

Some scenarios in CM are 60 turns (1 hour) long. Some are 120 turns. How long does it take to string out a daisy chain?

[PantherGunner]

Well I've never "daisy chained" any AT mines in my life but I have emplaced a hasty minefield (where you just put the mines on top of the ground). When doing a hasty minefield you have to take the mines out of the wooden crate, take out the shipping plug, insert the fuse, place the mine, etc. Even though this can be done rather "quickly" it is a slow process. Add on that the fact the personnel are/might be getting shot at is something that probably wouldn't happen in the scope of the game.

[von Schalburg]

Daisy chains mines can be put out in a matter of sec.

AT-mines tied together by a rope, placed in the side of a road. When a vehicle approach a man pull the rope and the mines block the road.

And the person pulling the rope can be serveral 100 meters away, in safety.

------------------

PanzerLeid

Mit donnernden Motoren,

So schnell wie der Blitz,

Dem Feinde entgegen,

Im Panzer geschützt.

Voraus den Kameraden

Im Kampfe ganz allein,

Steh'n wir allein,

So stossen wir tief

In die feindlichen Reihn.

von Schalburg

[Mattias]

I remember we used a daisy chain at a roadblock we set up. Three 14 kilo AT mines, about 15 meters away from the first dug in position.

I wonder if it was such a good idea

M.

[John Kettler]

Kingfish,

I have raised this issue before, but BTS didn't bite. Daisy chain mines, once assembled, are a form of almost instantly deployable mine defense. This defense is, under all but the best conditions, practically invisible. Here's why.

Let's say we're British paratroopers. I'm working from memory here, but I seem to recall

each man carried a Hawkins (sp?) mine in his pack, specifically for quick creation of roadblocks. This is a small antivehicular mine which will blow the track off a tank and do terrible things to a wheeled vehicle.

Our company has just seized a small village, and the expected German counterattack will include armor. Okay, there are a few PIATs, but the gliders with our 6 pdrs. crashed. "Bad luck, old man."

Never fear, Sgt. Simpkins will sort us out straightaway. The PIATs cover another set of approaches.

"Here's the form. CO wants that bit o' road there (points) mined right off. Out with those mines, lads."

You and your section mates open up your packs and each take out something heavy and looking like a wide, low metal brick, doubtless green or dirty brown in color. Think quart turpentine can.

Meanwhile Sgt. Simpkins has sent the ubiquitous Pvt. Smith to find him a wire or a rope long enough to not only reach across the road twice but well into the nearby ditch. The mines, being antivehicular, can stand rough handling and are armed after being tied to the rope at intervals close enough to block vehicular passage. The mines are now placed on the far side of the road hidden from the LOS of approaching vehicles. The wire extends from the mine area across the road to the drainage ditch in which you, Pvt. Kingfish have been put by your sergeant.

"Now see 'ere, Kingfish. When I give you the signal, and not before, mind, I want you to quickly pull the wire toward you until you feel this rag (or knot) hit your hand. Once you do, stop. Got it??

"Yes, sergeant."

In the twilight you notice the sergeant check his Sten and take a few grenades from his battle smock pocket. Your section mates are placed in cover positions in nearby houses. The sergeant and a handpicked man are in ambush positions near you. The task is twofold: make sure you don't blow up the CO's jeep by mistake and initiate the ambush at the instant an enemy vehicle hits the mines once you're ordered to pull them across the road.

Skrree! Rumble Rumble Rumble! Skree!

"Die Englander ist kaput!"

A quiet voice is heard, grimly determined.

"Steady on...steady...now, Kingfish!"

In scant seconds the mines have been whipped out of their concealment and now lie across the road. Wisely you put your head down as a 251 loaded with Panzergrenadiers comes sailing around the corner and hits a mine. KABOOM! As the stricken vehicle lurches into the wall two grenades add to its woes, followed by the chatter of the Sten, the crack of Enfields and the battle cries of your mates.

And what might the Germans have seen right up

until you actually pulled the mines onto the road? A wire, no doubt dirtied or greased to make it blend in. Even after they're deployed they're still very hard to spot, especially while under fire.

Try this. Take bricks or turpentine cans. Paint them dark green. Go put them in tall grass about three feet apart.

What? Can't see them? You can in the game, and from quite a distance.

Find an empty dirt road or path and do the same thing. Have a friend place the bricks or cans while you go climb a ten foot tree a hundred yards away. Be sure you have a telescope or binocs. Now hunt for the bricks while bouncing randomly in the tree. Pretty tough, eh. I've done exactly this in CM from the cupola of a Panther at 100m. Repeat this exercise with a muddy jumprope. That's all you'd see until the mines were deployed.

My message, Kingfish, is that you're totally correct in your view. I would dearly love for BTS, when the opportunity presents itself, to readdress the modeling of daisy chain mines, in terms of in-battle deployability, but especially detectability. Their proven battlefield effectiveness is nowhere to be seen in game terms. When was the last time you

ran onto one of mine? Never, I think.

Maybe BTS can at least shut off the strobe lights as a first order fix?

Your loyal opposition,

John Kettler

[This message has been edited by John Kettler (edited 03-07-2001).]

[Guest ciks]

Interesting stuff John. I read with great interest.

[IPA]

John,

Good post. From what I gather, this was standard ambush procedure. I have a book that describes two separate defensive position incidents involving the deployment of Hawkins mines during a battle almost exactly as you describe it.

Book is "The Cauldron" by Zeno, although a fiction about the Path finders at Arnhem, Zeno served as a Sergeant in the 21st Independent Company.

One of the best WWII books I've ever read, James Gavin rated it saying "that it had an absolute ring of authenticity.

Hence here's another vote for deployment of DCMs during the battle, perhaps not with the ability to move them after setup, but with increased chances of them remaining undetected due the "rope being pulled" at just the right moment.

Peter

[Aacooper]

US soldiers did similar things in the Bulge.

[Olle Petersson]

Just the way I was taught in the army...

One thing though; Visible minefields can be more effective than invisible ones, since, as noted, AFVs tend to avoid them.

Placing a visible minefield on a road will make the enemy opt to go around the mines, thus slowing down and become an easy target for ATGs.

You can also use visible minefields to channel the enemy into your kill zones. Just use mines to cut off the entire frontline except for a few narrow gaps, where you put TRPs.

Spice it up with assorted pillboxes, hidden MGs and ATGs and you're ready to go at it.

Cheers

Olle

[Kurtz]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

Visible minefields can be more effective than invisible ones, since, as noted, AFVs tend to avoid them.

Placing a visible minefield on a road will make the enemy opt to go around the mines, thus slowing down and become an easy target for ATGs.

You can also use visible minefields to channel the enemy into your kill zones.

And it doesn't have to be real mines. Few tanks would drive through somefink that even looked like a minefield.

But how common were decoy minefields during WW2?

------------------

SS-Weihnachtsgrenadiere

[Jasper]

This falls under the heading of 'deployable field fortifications'. I'd like to add: Dig A Hole.

[Terence]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

In the twilight you notice the sergeant check his Sten and take a few grenades from his battle smock pocket.

Battle smock???

[Kingfish]

John,

You are right, when was the last time anyone ran over a daisy chain? I never had, nor had my opponents. I feel that the mines are not being used to their full potential. Right now they are no more effective than a roadblock, a visible barrier to vehicles that can only be deployed during setup.

BTW, I loved the short story. Too bad you couldn't have used German soldiers ambushing French armored cars instead

One thing though; Visible minefields can be more effective than invisible ones, since, as noted, AFVs tend to avoid them.

True, but with hidden ones you have the opportunity to kill an AFV, something you don't get with visible ones. Besides, once "discovered" hidden mines block vehicle access just as well.

Here's a couple of more questions:

1) How many of you have purchased daisy chains in the past?

2) How many would if:

a) you had the option to deploy them during battle

You were able to ambush armor in the manner that John and von Schalburg described?

[Leonidas]

I never purchase any kind of AT mine, unless there are going to be massive forests on the map. If there is much room for the AFVs to maneuver, then the likelihood of an AFV hitting your little mine patch seems remote.

Another major problem with buying mines is that you can only deploy them on your half of the map. In most battles I've played, attacking armor doesn't enter the defender's half of the map until the end of the battle. If the map is open enough, there's rarely need to come into 'zook/'schreck range. I suggest allowing the defender to deploy mines anywhere outside of the attacker's deployment zone.

[von Schalburg]

Kingfish I for one, have never used Daisy mines in a QB. But if I could deploy and use them during battle I would for sure buy them when defending.

This one derserve a little attention.

------------------

PanzerLeid

Mit donnernden Motoren,

So schnell wie der Blitz,

Dem Feinde entgegen,

Im Panzer geschützt.

Voraus den Kameraden

Im Kampfe ganz allein,

Steh'n wir allein,

So stossen wir tief

In die feindlichen Reihn.

von Schalburg

[Mark IV]

I've used buried AT mines with good effect, picturing the "funnel" that will eventually bring the AFVs into an area. Even if they don't hit them there is some peace of mind associated with at least partially protecting an approach. This allows you to allocate other AT assets more efficiently.

Daisy chains are pretty much useless, except that if you are saddled with them by an auto-purchase, you can use them in the same way. At least you deny some access to the enemy. I have never seen a vehicle harmed by them and agree about the visibility depriving them of most of their value.

[Kingfish]

I'm bumping this one with the hope that I get more responses to my questions.

[John Kelly]

I made a similar inquiry a few months ago. I am creating an operation and thought it should be possible to call for daisy chain mines somewhere other than the initial "on map" setup. In my particular operation, I timed it to the 3rd reinforcement force. I thought the bridges I had created would need to be defended hastily. Well, I settled for pre-placing anti-tank mines during the onmap phase. I think it makes perfect sense. John

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

Originally posted by Terence:

Battle smock???

In civillian terms, his shirt.

------------------

shadow@jagdtiger.de

Canada For CM

I AM CANADIAN!

Eh?

[Leonidas]

I'm genuinely confused. If the daisy-chain mines are harder to spot, then how are they different from normal AT mines?

As an addition to the game, deploying daisy-chain mines during battle certainly sounds interesting from a pure game perspective. It's strange that QBs charge the same for daisy-chains as they do for normal minefields.

But I don't yet understand exactly what the proposal is here. Would DC mines still cost the same as regular mines? If DC mines become less visible, would normal AT minefields become nearly invisible? I would think so. I've never understood how you can spot an AT minefield unless you've got infantry really close to it. The difference between DC and regular AT is that the mines are buried, right? So unless you get up close and study the ground, you're not going to know they're there.

Someone mentioned how hard it would be to spot even DC mines in grass. Wouldn't the logical conclusion be that it would be easier to see them on a road? Shouldn't mines generally be easy to spot on roads and other non-vegetative surfaces? How would snow affect things: harder to see, because the snow has buried them, or easier to see, because of all the footprints in the snow left behind by those who placed them? How would mud affect the visibility and effectiveness of mines? Should there be a 'Minefield?' icon to indicate that there are idicia of a minefield. Could the defender buy fake minefields (maybe just in an Assault), meaning that he sent some guys out the day before with shovels to dig holes and make patches of ground look like mines were buried there?

As one largely ignorant on these topics, I would love to hear a complete proposal on how mines should be improved for CM2, from someone who really knows this stuff.

[This message has been edited by Leonidas (edited 03-09-2001).]

[Kingfish]

Here's an interesting quote from the manual (page 92):

"Their real life advantage is that they can be placed MUCH faster than normal minefields and hence were used often to cover hasty retreats"

I read that to mean that they were held in reserve, ready to be deployed in emergency situations, IOW during the battle.

[John Kettler]

I hope I don't screw this up, since the brain's not all here, but I'll try to address some of the points raised.

First, in CM there are two types of antitank mine. One is conventionally buried, unless in a marked field or improperly camouflaged is hard to spot, and should theoretically be able to not just break a track, but wreck the running gear and quite possibly inflict casualties as well on all but very heavy vehicles. Tank belly armor is around 20 mm or less, I believe. Such mines are at a minimum deployed under the supervision of combat engineers in surveyed and meticulously recorded positions.

The Tellermine, a common German AT mine in any of several models, has 5.5 kg of TNT as the explosive charge. Yes, it was also used as a close combat weapon against tanks, especially on the Eastern Front. A pressure of 90-180 kg is needed to activate its fuze, though the close combat method uses as pull fuze screwed into an antilift fuze well on the side of the mine.

I don't have much information on the U.S. antitank mines, but the pictures I've seen of

engineer halftracks suggest the mines were more of the order of trackbreakers than vehicle killers. The British Mark 5 mine had an explosive charge of 3.7 kg of TNT, placing it somewhere between the Tellermine and the American AT mines, by my estimate. My source here is JANE'S MINES AND MINE CLEARANCE, Third Edition 1998-1999.

That's a quick and dirty look at buried AT mines in CM. I have no idea exactly how CM models mines, whether generically or specifically by nation and type.

The other side of the mine warfare coin is the daisy chain mine. I have already given the readers a detailed description of how to use one. Properly speaking, this is a description of tactical employment, not the mine proper.

My information here is sketchy. I know the British paras had the Hawkins mine, which thanks to Ian Hogg's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF INFANTRY WEAPONS OF WORLD WAR II I can say had the shockingly light weight of 1 kg, most of which was explosive, such as Ammonal, etc. It's even smaller than a brick. U.S. airborne types had something similar. What I don't know is whether the Germans had anything like this.

Nor do I have any direct knowledge that daisy chain mines were common items for the average infantryman. Certainly the evidence that British and U.S. airborne troops had light mines which were used this way is substantial; general infantry use is presently an unresolved issue for me.

To recap, Kingfish, others and I are arguing that as presently constituted daisy chain mines are useless except in a visible route denial role. Unless the foe drives upon them deliberately, they will never claim a direct kill, though they may channel an attack into a trap which will then exact casualties.

As shown above, and armed with new data on how small these mines evidently were, it is quite clear that these mines should be almost invisible in grass, amid debris, etc, particularly if we get our wish and are able to pull the mine barrier across the road or defile at will; it's only a wire or rope exposed to enemy search--until the few seconds after mine deployment. By then, it's usually too late.

The sad truth is that daisy chain mines in CM,

as compared to their real World War II counterparts, offer nowhere near the tactical benefits they should. Put bluntly, they've been emasculated. They're easy to spot, static, and incapable of fulfilling their real world function. We'd like to see them fixed as soon as it's feasible, please.

Sincerely,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Terence,

The battle smock is an oversize camouflage garment which goes over the regular battledres. Web gear then goes on over the battle smock, which has large pockets fitted to carry all manner of military and utility items.

Regards,

John Kettler