Daisy chain mines

[Terence]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Terence,

The battle smock is an oversize camouflage garment which goes over the regular battledres. Web gear then goes on over the battle smock, which has large pockets fitted to carry all manner of military and utility items.

Regards,

John Kettler

OK.

That makes more sense. There was a sort of humorous tone to your original (excellent) post and I wasn't sure if this reference was part of the joke.

To someone who only ran into smocks in junior high art class, "battle smock" has a funny ring.

[coe]

Has anyone ever hit a daisy chain mine?

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by coe:

Has anyone ever hit a daisy chain mine?

Probably not, but that's not their intended purpose. Hidden minefields aren't designed to inflict massive casualties, and Daisy Chain (on top of the ground) mines even less so. Their purpose, as MarkIV stated, is to funnel an enemy into a kill sack, or alternately to deny him 'good' terrain. As we were taught in 12B school, their main purpose is to slow, stop, or reroute an enemy attack. If the terrain allows it (especially heavily wooded or swampy terrain), they work as advertised in CM. The same goes for AP mines.

[Guest Offwhite]

I played one scenario where DC mines did a fine job on enemy armor. In one case, I placed the chain right behind a crest, and a halftrack blundered onto it without slowing down. Since the AI is in charge during the turn resolution, this ought to be possible against a human opponent as well as the computer. My other chain blocked a forest road that the enemy vehicles could not avoid if they wanted to reach their objective, so the computer kept sending them right on through... I think about 10% made it safely. In this case your human opponent would be more likely to bring up some engineers and pull the darn thing out of the way.

------------------

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep

Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap

- Rudyard Kipling, "Tommy"

[Kingfish]

I see that Steve is taking a break from driving an ISU-152 to chat with us homies, so I'm bumping this up in the hopes that he might pop in. Everyone is invited, even Tiger. Grab a brew, take a seat and speak your mind.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

My only experience with a unit hitting daisy chain AT mines (enemy or my own) was back in the Gold Demo. I can't remember the name of the scenario, but it wasn't Chance Encounter. It was the one that isn't included in the full game. Anyway, the short story is that a buttoned enemy Sherman blundered into my daisy-chain in a dip in the road.

-Andrew

[Holien]

Hi if I may add my insight...

I have used Daisy Chains given to me by the game and they have worked, but only as described above if you can place in a dip or behind a crest and hope something comes barrelling along. (Also the opponent skill or lack of it helped).

If they (DC) were modified I don't think I would buy them, as the QB battles do not simulate those sort of encounters where you would deploy in the game.

I agree certain scenarios they would be great as the designer can build a use into the game.

I would not think it worth the coding effort to allow deployment "in game". I do think they should be made less visible but I have not done any tests to see how visible they are at he moment. Is this an issue?

Has anyone got any idea of when they become spotted? And does this differ from terrain type to terrain type?

I do make use of AT mines and AP mines but they have not yet proved to me their value in a consistent fashion.

Mind you in a recent game where I was defending I took out a Churchill and Kangaroo with mines and they certainly helped defeat my opponent.

Don't you just hate it when you know your opponent has mines sown, but where might they be? That psychological effect can be well worth it, but pretty un measurable.

H

[olandt]

I'm not sure if this was the intention of BTS, but the daisy-chain mine description of pulling the mines across the road at the last minute may go under the "close combat abstraction" of infantry attacking vehicles. Which still doesn't address what CM daisy-chain mines are, but would make the coders life easier to hand wave the surprise AT mine away. At the very least, daisy chain mines should be given a silouette rating, and therefor have a chance of actually being stumbled upon, primarily in low visibility conditions. Either that, or reduce their cost a little.

[MichaelU]

I've used daisy chain mines to great effect, but only in a scenario with lots of forests and only a few roads. They gave the attacker all sort of problems.

Can't imagine what use they are in a QB though as they can't be placed far forward enough.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I do think they should be made less visible but I have not done any tests to see how visible they are at he moment. Is this an issue?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is. Here's a quick test. Medium map, mod trees and hills, clear day. Take a 12 man rifle squad and a daisy chain and deploy them in scattered trees. Now advance on them from a 1000 meters away. Chances are you will spot the DC long before the squad, yet we're talking about the difference between 12 men and 5-6 brick sized objects painted to match the terrain.

[M Hofbauer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler:

Let's say we're British paratroopers.

(...)

Meanwhile Sgt. Simpkins has sent the ubiquitous Pvt. Smith to find him a wire or a rope long enough to not only reach across the road twice but well into the nearby ditch. The mines, being antivehicular, can stand rough handling and are armed after being tied to the rope at intervals close enough to block vehicular passage. The mines are now placed on the far side of the road hidden from the LOS of approaching vehicles. The wire extends from the mine area across the road to the drainage ditch in which you, Pvt. Kingfish have been put by your sergeant.

(...)

In scant seconds the mines have been whipped out of their concealment and now lie across the road. Wisely you put your head down as a 251 loaded with Panzergrenadiers comes sailing around the corner and hits a mine.

(...)

And what might the Germans have seen right up

until you actually pulled the mines onto the road? A wire, no doubt dirtied or greased to make it blend in. Even after they're deployed they're still very hard to spot, especially while under fire.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two notes about above example:

1) - the two Hawkins mines will be at considerable interval. How do you know the HT's track isn't going through the unmined rope part? (it would be hard to pull them exactly before the track, given your dusk situation and the fact that the rope-puller must be hidden in the ditch so that he won't be blown to bits by the mine blast).

2) - when hastily pulling that rope with the two mines attached across the road from the ditch, there is a considerable chance that they might bump and bounce and end up lying on their side when run over, which means they will only get squashed but won't detonate.

btw, IIRC the germans' daisy chain construction usually had the mines fixed onto a wood panel instead of strung on a rope. Like others already stated, that's okay since they usually weren't really meant for concealment anyhow.

[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[Sergeant Saunders]

I have found one successfull use of Daisy-Chains in CMBO:

Place DCM on the road in plain sight. As stated above AFV tend to avoid it. Then I place hidden AT-mines on both sides of the road. The AFVs go around the DCM in road and boom, right into hidden AT-mines! It doesn't work all the time, but very nice when it does.

It seems to work best in open grassy areas. And once the hidden mines are discovered, sometimes the AFVs will give a better side angle for the AT-guns when going around area.

Will say that so far only 2 hotseat enemies have fallen for this, but the AI is really dumb.

[olandt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergeant Saunders:

I have found one successfull use of Daisy-Chains in CMBO:

Place DCM on the road in plain sight. As stated above AFV tend to avoid it. Then I place hidden AT-mines on both sides of the road. The AFVs go around the DCM in road and boom, right into hidden AT-mines! It doesn't work all the time, but very nice when it does.

It seems to work best in open grassy areas. And once the hidden mines are discovered, sometimes the AFVs will give a better side angle for the AT-guns when going around area.

Will say that so far only 2 hotseat enemies have fallen for this, but the AI is really dumb.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this better than simply 2 AT minefields that cover the road and to the side?

[M Hofbauer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by olandt:

Is this better than simply 2 AT minefields that cover the road and to the side?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh - do hidden minefields overlap into the road tile? Weare talking paved road, right?

Interesting...

[Dirtweasle]

Here's a couple of more questions:

Replied in CAPS, (NOT SHOUTING).

1) How many of you have purchased daisy chains in the past? OFTEN, THOUGH ONLY IF I CAN AFFORD TO GET 2 REGULAR AT MINES TO GO WITH THEM. OTHERWISE I JUST PURCHASE THE REGULAR AT MINES.

2) How many would if:

a) you had the option to deploy them during battle

YES, NOT A QUESTION ABOUT IT. THEY WOULD BE WORTH THE COST THEN EASLILY.

You were able to ambush armor in the manner that John and von Schalburg described?

DITTO

[Dirtweasle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by coe:

Has anyone ever hit a daisy chain mine?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At night and fog I think I recall seing tanks hit them, though can't be sure.

[ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: Dirtweasle ]