Do Elite Units Really Exist? A Historical Question WARNING: Incoherent

[Terence]

In Which I Compare Reality to The Game (With Apologies to Bastables)

OK, here's what I don't get.

An elite unit is one that knows exactly what to do in combat -- a bunch of guys who shoot very well, don't run away, are hard to hit cause they take cover well, and are generally first rate soldiers in every sense of the word.

Presumably they real soldiers get this way from natural ability excellent training and lots of combat experience.

In the game, you can -- with the right number of points -- buy yourself a company, battalion or whatever of elite units.

But, attrition in the ETO were so high, that many units suffered more than 100 percent casualties with green replacements coming in.

So, while you could in the game buy an entire force of elite units (with enough points) did elite units exist in real life the way they do in the game? Or did they exist not in the regular armies, but only in specialty units like Rangers or Commandos or paratroops?

Take the 101st Airborne (or was it the 82nd?) as described in Band of Brothers, for example. Highly trained, well equippped and with high morale. But on D-Day, they had 0 combat experience, which is presumably a part of the requirements for elite status, right??

But once they get the combat experience, some of the men are dead, and their replacements have no combat experience.

OTOH, anyone who read Mark Baker's book Blackhawk Down saw some amazing descriptions of the Delta Force operatives -- guys who never seemed to get rattled in combat and always knew what to do, and shot the living hell out of hundreds of Somalis. So if what Baker says is true, there really are guys like that and a unit of them is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Clearly, elite soldiers are rare. No question about that at all. I'm just wondering about what would be the best way to represent them in a scenario or in historically accurate QBs...

to rephrase: Did they exist on the line, or were they kept for special jobs a la Guns of Navarone (which I know is a movie) or if not that, what?

Thanks and albest,

Terence

______

It is not enough that I should succeed. My friends must also fail.

[Guy w/gun]

In villers bocage you have only one elite unit, and thats Wittman. In Le Loray you have an elite Panther, Barkman (is that his name?). In both of these scenarios you have 1 elite up against a horde of lower level enemy troops.

Going from these scenarios, it seems that in reality truly elite soldiers got into hairy situations but still were able to inflict a lot of damage because of skill. When I set up QB's with elites that I want to be accurate, I usually have one elite Tank,platoon, etc up against a greater number of green or regulars.

[Banshee]

Elite units existed for special jobs (Rangers (Assaults,Pointe Du Hoc,etc), 82nd and 101st Airborne )but due to the manpower shortage they often got used "on the line" for long periods after their special missions were completed.

Training and motivation are the key.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Michael Dorosh]

Leadership is the key - your replacements get killed, yes, but a core of good leaders is what keeps an elite unit elite.

Having said that, it wasn't just paras who were "elite" - there were many good line infantry units that were in every way as well led and combat effective - they just didn't get the popular press that paratroopers did.

The same goes for the Germans - Grossdeutschland seems to have had its own press corps and got the lion's share of attention - but there were other equally reliable units with numbers instead of names.

[Terence]

So, with a dutiful nod to the gods of abstraction, we can say that an elite rifle company (or a rifle company with a perponderance of elite units ), whilst extremely rare, could in fact exist, right? And not just be a special operations only unit?

And that a different, separate unit of terrified conscripts could stumble upon said elite unit during "normal" wartime operations and get their ass handed to them?

[This message has been edited by Terence (edited 01-17-2001).]

[Warmaker]

I never let any unit >battallion level gain a crack/elite status when choosing units. Any "elite" formations larger than battallion level I only make veteran while those truly special companies/platoons are "crack." But with men like Wittman/Barkmann make Elite... which are few and far in between. So again, large, elite units like the 82nd/101st Airborne, 1st/2nd SS Panzer Divisions as a whole I like putting at a veteran status with smaller units at higher levels. For the majority of divisions seeing at least some combat with lotsa greens I put at Regular. Even divisions seeing no combat but have undergone extensive training (preparations before D-Day) I put at Regular. The Greens/Conscripts? Heheheh, I hope they're not atheist. Conscripts/militias tend to get massacred when put against a trained/experienced military formation.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Forever Babra]

I would not rate combat experience as a pre-requisite for elite status. In fact, too much combat experience has been proved to make even renowned units shy. In some notable examples such as Assorro in Sicily or Nijmegen in Holland, exceptional results were recorded by units who were too inexperienced and/or too desperate to know or care that what they were attempting was "impossible" and so they did it anyway, despite the odds.

So I would rate an elite unit as one which was professionally trained and exceptionally motivated, with competent leadership and high morale, at the time. Also, a unit which is elite today, may not be tomorrow as leadership and morale vary. I might also consider an elite unit to be fanatic, though a fanatic unit might not necessarily be elite. It's a tough call.

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

So, with a dutiful nod to the gods of abstraction, we can say that an elite rifle company (or a rifle company with a perponderance of elite units ), whilst extremely rare, could in fact exist, right? And not just be a special operations only unit?

And that a different, separate unit of terrified conscripts could stumble upon said elite unit during "normal" wartime operations and get their ass handed to them?

[This message has been edited by Terence (edited 01-17-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

isn't "elite" jsut a relative term?

being elite just means you are better than crack, which is better than veteran, which is better than regular, etc.,etc.

So of course some units are elite, by definition. However you define it (top 2%, top 10%, whatever).

Jeff Heidman

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Forever Babra:

I would not rate combat experience as a pre-requisite for elite status. In fact, too much combat experience has been proved to make even renowned units shy. In some notable examples such as Assorro in Sicily or Nijmegen in Holland, exceptional results were recorded by units who were too inexperienced and/or too desperate to know or care that what they were attempting was "impossible" and so they did it anyway, despite the odds.

So I would rate an elite unit as one which was professionally trained and exceptionally motivated, with competent leadership and high morale, at the time. Also, a unit which is elite today, may not be tomorrow as leadership and morale vary. I might also consider an elite unit to be fanatic, though a fanatic unit might not necessarily be elite. It's a tough call.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

12th SS Hitlerjugend definitely counts as so inexperienced as to be bold to the point of recklessness. The majority of the division were teenaged boys, yet they fought in Normandy with unparallelled boldness.

[Aacooper]

Question for Forever Babra: Which unit in Niimejan, Holland was too inexperienced to know any better? Remember, elements of the 82d fought in Sicily, Italy, Normandy, then they had a few days of combat in Holland.

I would say elite units should be few and far between - single tanks, or maybe a single squad or leader which had a member win a Medal of Honor that day.

There are many many examples of non-elite fanatical units. Look at the fighting in the Harz Mtns in April, 1945.

[109 Gustav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

12th SS Hitlerjugend definitely counts as so inexperienced as to be bold to the point of recklessness. The majority of the division were teenaged boys, yet they fought in Normandy with unparallelled boldness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct, but they probably didn't fight well. To simulate this in CM, make them fanatics instead. That way they won't panic or run, but they will still act inexperienced, ie not take cover or shoot as well as elite units.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

Correct, but they probably didn't fight well. To simulate this in CM, make them fanatics instead. That way they won't panic or run, but they will still act inexperienced, ie not take cover or shoot as well as elite units.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good point. That is actually exactly what I did when I crafted a scenario on Buron involving the HJ, only to save it in the wrong place and have the computer eat it. WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

In real life those boys had to be taken out at point blank range with 75mm cannon fire - they wouldn't come out of their holes! They just lay there til the tanks went past then popped up and kept shooting.

[Franko]

Frequently what I do, during scenario design, is make sure the COMMANDERS are veteran, elite, etc., but rarely the grunts. Thus, a Hitler Youth panzergrenadier platoon, which say fought for a few days in Caen, might look like this:

1. Commander: Crack (or Elite)

Combat, Leadership, Morale +1 or +2

2. First Squad: Crack

3. Second Squad: Veteran

4. Third Squad: Dead or nonexistent.

Also, indirect fire units were most likely to be of a higher caliber than the grunt, as a rule of thumb. This is because they usually have a higher survivor rate. Also, veteran units, or even crack or elite units, may be VERY weak (a platoon may have 20 guys, tops), unless the units have an extraordinary high esprit de corp to begin with (e.g., Rangers, Airborne, etc.). I think it is GAMEY to do otherwise.

My 2 cents.

Frank

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franko:

Frequently what I do, during scenario design, is make sure the COMMANDERS are veteran, elite, etc., but rarely the grunts. Thus, a Hitler Youth panzergrenadier platoon, which say fought for a few days in Caen, might look like this:

1. Commander: Crack (or Elite)

Combat, Leadership, Morale +1 or +2

2. First Squad: Crack

3. Second Squad: Veteran

4. Third Squad: Dead or nonexistent.

Also, indirect fire units were most likely to be of a higher caliber than the grunt, as a rule of thumb. This is because they usually have a higher survivor rate. Also, veteran units, or even crack or elite units, may be VERY weak (a platoon may have 20 guys, tops), unless the units have an extraordinary high esprit de corp to begin with (e.g., Rangers, Airborne, etc.). I think it is GAMEY to do otherwise.

My 2 cents.

Frank<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOB

In WW II most Brit/Canadian infantry platoons left people out of battle (LOB) ON PURPOSE - if the platoon commander went into an attack, the platoon sergeant stayed at B Echelon, plus sometimes one or two riflemen from each "squad" (section). That is another thing one would like to see detailed in CM2 - squads not up to full strength for whatever reasons (casualties, LOB, etc). (Also, Canadian and British squads were led by corporals, not sergeants as in the American and German armies).

[massimorocca]

Correct, but they probably didn't fight well.

You sure? I just finished Steel Inferno by Reynolds and they seems better then Leibstandarte. They stop alone the whole Canadian army in TOTALIZE. A green units can fight like a crack if the chain of comand fron Division HQ to NCO was elite level, and the ranks of HJ was made from super veterans of Russian front

Cheers

[TheDesertFox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Correct, but they probably didn't fight well. To simulate this in CM, make them fanatics instead. That way they won't panic or run, but they will still act inexperienced, ie not take cover or shoot as well as elite units.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh ? You might want to ask the poles and canadians about how this division fought. They can tell you. Read "Tout" "Blackburn" "Stacey" etc.

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: TheDesertFox@gmx.net

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

[Warmaker]

In regards to the Hitlerjugend Pz.Div. you've already made reference to their excellent performance in Normandy despite their youth and inexperience. In the "Steel Inferno" book, it's pointed out that the key ingredient for their success is their leadership. Many of their leadership and NCOs were transferred from the 1st SS Panzer Division after ALOT of fighting in Russia. The LAH felt the loss considerably but still had many veterans. Not to mention preference in new equipment since they beared Hitler's name. Anyhow, the book also talked about training techniques by the Waffen SS and in particular for their grenadiers and for the HJ division. One leader of the division,"Panzer Meyer" loved using live fire training for the young troops with Panzers training alongside. He admitted some of those boys getting shot/ran over during training but it prepared the whole unit the hard way with bullets flying around and taught them quickly to work closely with the Panzers. In combat the veterans were the core of the division and used their experience to better employ their men.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker:

In regards to the Hitlerjugend Pz.Div. you've already made reference to their excellent performance in Normandy despite their youth and inexperience. In the "Steel Inferno" book, it's pointed out that the key ingredient for their success is their leadership. Many of their leadership and NCOs were transferred from the 1st SS Panzer Division after ALOT of fighting in Russia. The LAH felt the loss considerably but still had many veterans. Not to mention preference in new equipment since they beared Hitler's name. Anyhow, the book also talked about training techniques by the Waffen SS and in particular for their grenadiers and for the HJ division. One leader of the division,"Panzer Meyer" loved using live fire training for the young troops with Panzers training alongside. He admitted some of those boys getting shot/ran over during training but it prepared the whole unit the hard way with bullets flying around and taught them quickly to work closely with the Panzers. In combat the veterans were the core of the division and used their experience to better employ their men.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interestingly enough, von Mellenthin said exactly the opposite of the division when he was captured. He said that the soldiers were first rate, but the leaders second class. This would make sense, since LAH would not willingly transfer the good officers and NCOs, if they were able to select them they would probably have sent the bottom of the league. Also, 'Panzer' Meyer has apparently been wont to exaggerate the leadership contribution and the losses of the division, according to Reynolds.

Reading about the attacking style of the division in Normandy makes you think that they were in fact ineptly lead in many attacks (e.g. counter-attack at Cintheaux as described by Tout).

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[IPA]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

LOB

(Also, Canadian and British squads were led by corporals, not sergeants as in the American and German armies).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, except for Airborne and Commando units.

IPA

[Chupacabra]

Also, as F Babra wrote, too much combat experience is often counter-productive. I'd give the 7th AD as the obvious example. In '44 they were one of the most, if not the most, battle-experienced division in the British Army, having fought in North Africa and Italy and having generally performed well. They were sent home to rest and refit in early '44, where they were re-equipped with Cromwells and Fireflies, then the best British tanks. When they got to Normandy, they were overconfident and sloppy, and Wittmann handed them their asses.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Also, as F Babra wrote, too much combat experience is often counter-productive. I'd give the 7th AD as the obvious example. In '44 they were one of the most, if not the most, battle-experienced division in the British Army, having fought in North Africa and Italy and having generally performed well. They were sent home to rest and refit in early '44, where they were re-equipped with Cromwells and Fireflies, then the best British tanks. When they got to Normandy, they were overconfident and sloppy, and Wittmann handed them their asses.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent example. Third Canadian Division was pretty much strung out after 6 weeks in Normandy, too.

[Guest wwb_99]

One comment: Relativity.

While 'elite' units may or may not have existed in combat, units that were head and shoulders above others in combat effectiveness clearly did.

The 'elite' rating (and all of the others, for that matter) only matter in terms of being relatively better than 'crack.' As long as the relitive differences are consistent, the label is immaterial.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[sturmtiger101]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

Correct, but they probably didn't fight well. To simulate this in CM, make them fanatics instead. That way they won't panic or run, but they will still act inexperienced, ie not take cover or shoot as well as elite units.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the young grenadiers of the 12th SS Panzer Div. fought extremely well and inflicted more material damage, personnel casualties, and frustration of allied offensives, comparatively, than any other whermacht formation in the Normandy campaign.

To say this unit was reckless or fanatical in its' combat actions in Normandy seriously underrates its' fighting capabilities, leadership, and morale that were displayed time and again in actions with Canadian, British, Scottish, and Polish units from 7 June - 25 August 1944. It Also ignores the historical facts. Per authors like: M. Reynolds " Steel Inferno, I SS Panzer Corps In Normandy " and M. Hastings " Overlord, D-Day, June 6, 1944 " and H. Meyer " History of the 12th SS Panzer Division " and A. McKee " Caen, Anvil of Victory " documented fact shows these kids were well trained in the art of cover, concealment, fire discipline, close assault, combined arms,etc..., and were well led. All but one of the battalion level and higher unit leaders were holders of the Knight's Cross and most company level and above officers and 70% of the NCOs' had extensive combat experience from '39 up to and including months / years service on the Eastern Front.

Now, I don't know what all this should mean in terms of CM scenarios incorporating elements of this division, but my point is that, though the soldiers of this unit were young and this was their first combat, from beginning to end they fought like old pro's and most often gave better than they got. IMHO, they rate as veteran and crack troops, perhaps with a few elite individuals thrown in. Max Wunsche, anyone?

Just my two cents, gents.

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" They're acting as if they have already won the war! " B. Woll

" We will prove them wrong. " M. Whitman

[This message has been edited by sturmtiger101 (edited 01-18-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sturmtiger101:

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

Correct, but they probably didn't fight well. To simulate this in CM, make them fanatics instead. That way they won't panic or run, but they will still act inexperienced, ie not take cover or shoot as well as elite units.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the young grenadiers of the 12th SS Panzer Div. fought extremely well and inflicted more material damage, personnel casualties, and frustration of allied offensives, comparatively, than any other whermacht formation in the Normandy campaign.

To say this unit was reckless or fanatical in its' combat actions in Normandy seriously underrates its' fighting capabilities, leadership, and morale that were displayed time and again in actions with Canadian, British, Scottish, and Polish units from 7 June - 25 August 1944. It Also ignores the historical facts. Per authors like: M. Reynolds " Steel Inferno, I SS Panzer Corps In Normandy " and M. Hastings " Overlord, D-Day, June 6, 1944 " and H. Meyer " History of the 12th SS Panzer Division " and A. McKee " Caen, Anvil of Victory " documented fact shows these kids were well trained in the art of cover, concealment, fire discipline, close assault, combined arms,etc..., and were well led. All but one of the battalion level and higher unit leaders were holders of the Knight's Cross and most company level and above officers and 70% of the NCOs' had extensive combat experience from '39 up to and including months / years service on the Eastern Front.

Now, I don't know what all this should mean in terms of CM scenarios incorporating elements of this division, but my point is that, though the soldiers of this unit were young and this was their first combat, from beginning to end they fought like old pro's and most often gave better than they got. IMHO, they rate as veteran and crack troops, perhaps with a few elite individuals thrown in. Max Wunsche, anyone?

Just my two cents, gents.

They fought well, but not like vets. There is a difference. Vets would not have waited in the anti-tank ditch at Buron and fought without surrendering even though outnumbered and out gunner. they simply did not know when they were beaten, and took a lot of Allied troops with them when they went down fighting. It was a vicious battle (the HLI lost 262 men out of a full strength of 800 (400 in the rifle companies) in one day of action. The battalion of the 25th SS Pz Gren Rgt that defended Buron was virtually wiped out. It was not a textbook defence - if it had been, German casualties would have been lower - but it was effective enough at grinding the Allied assault down. The HLI took the town (mostly - some pockets held out another day) but at great cost. The inexperience of the defenders made it at great cost for themselves, as well.