Tournamenthouse Combined Arms League is up and ready for sign-ups!

[Wreck]

A week ago I posted criticisms of the proposed CAL rules. One which I had a bad feeling about at the time was the 3 gun limit.

I played a game two nights ago which showed a big problem with this rule. It was not CAL, since my opponent has not joined, but it used the CAL rules more or less. I was American versus his Heer. The short-75 rules were in effect.

He bought a standard force with two PzIVs for his tanks. I bought 5 M8s. The terrain was a long valley on my left, with a woods and reverse slope on his side. His infantry could hide there easily enough from most everything on my side. In the center was the villiage; both sides could see it pretty well from setup. The major objective was there, though somewhat to the left. On the right was a large hill with a minor objective. It was clear that this entire side of the map was of peripheral importance.

The game opened fairly slowly. Both sides rushed small forces into the villiage and had them spanked by the other side's HE. However, from the center hill I could observe his side of the valley, and used mortar and MG fire to take out his first gun. My 105 was firing obliquely and was rather hard to get LOS to, so he just backed out of the villiage and avoided it.

I ordered two M8s onto the hill on the right, where they helped drop a building or two, but then could not see much. I ran one M8 forward to the edge of the villiage. After a few more turns, I ordered the last two down into the valley, where they could see part of his main infantry line, where it was set up on the wooded crest of a small slope. His tanks had been hanging back, so I figured to push back infantry, hiding from his tanks behind a small hill on the extreme left.

His two remaining guns could see the M8 at the edge of the villiage, and one (IIRC) could also see the M8s moving down into the valley. I guess this tempted him enough. He opened up with both guns. Both missed a few shots, then the M8 at the villiage set on fire the woods one was in for an instant KO. The next turn my mortars fired at the third gun (though IIRC the M8 also took out it as well, on the first shot, before backing away).

Now I had 5 M8s to his two PzIVs. He knew where one gun of mine was. So he very cautiously worked forward to try to take on some of my infantry.

But I knew he had no guns left. I ran my two M8s from the hill on the right all the way around to his rear, where his guns had been. His tanks were encircled. They died. He gave up.

I would not have tried to pull that sort of maneuver, except that I knew there were no guns in his rear. That's gamey. (As it turned out, I could have killed his tanks from the front, since I won the first duel there before my encircling maneuver was complete; but that was by no means guaranteed.)

I would suggest that given the "must buy gun transports" rule, we do not need the gun-limits rule. And in fact that rule is at least sometimes gameable.

I also don't see the rationale for the rule forbidding jeeps or kubels as the transport. Big guns require more, little guns less. That's fine with me.

[Bil Hardenberger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I would suggest that given the "must buy gun transports" rule, we do not need the gun-limits rule. And in fact that rule is at least sometimes gameable.

I also don't see the rationale for the rule forbidding jeeps or kubels as the transport. Big guns require more, little guns less. That's fine with me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree with Wreck here. The CA selection will automatically limit the number of guns you can buy, and with transport a necessity for them, then their cost goes up, which is good.

I also think that if a vehicle was able to transport the weapon historically, then that vehicle should be allowed to substitute for a truck/halftrack. However, how many people know what vehicle could tow what gun? Perhaps a list, by someone who has the time to research it, would come in handy.

Good points Wreck.

Bil

P.S. I really like the CAL concept, thanks for bringing it to us TH.

[Abbott]

Guns

Towed guns will be limited to no more then 3 per side up to 1000 points spent. 1 gun per 1000 points spent thereafter. (Example 2,000-point game up to 4 guns allowed per side, 5,000-point game up to 7 guns per side). This includes all guns from the “support” category of CMBO.

The Attacking player and both players in Meeting Engagements will purchase halftracks or trucks capable of towing each gun purchased. (This makes the increased costs of guns something to consider and sometimes will add the missing Halftracks back into the force mix). Jeeps and Kulbewagon type vehicles will not count towards this total.

-------------------------

It is very difficult to write a guideline that works for everyone perfectly. Each and everyone can be redressed constantly. There were only two goals with the gun guideline. They were to control the over buying of guns that had become the dominating factor in many ladder games and simplicity. Many folks only read the guidelines for the game they are playing i.e. “Short 75”, “Panther 76” etc…To cover everything in exact detail would require a second manual that often would not be read. Players come in many varieties from the Grog to the occasional player, all are wanted and welcomed at CAL. To accommodate all the players simplicity has to be the first concern.

The first comments received on the gun guideline were “It only stated towed guns! I will buy all the immobile guns I can get” “Jeeps are cheap, no need to use them for towing, buy a fleet and use them for Recon”. In the interest of simplicity (not having to consult a list) trucks and halftracks were settled upon.

We are trying to avoid the second manual approach with CAL. There are plans in progress to expand the “Optional Rules” section in a major way. A CAL mailing list is being set up that will provide a discussion forum for those interested in contributing to the guidelines and will also be used for opponents wanted.

One player has offered a suggestion that troop list be made available to portray each country, troop type and month. That would be great but is a huge undertaking. A towing list would also be fabulous to have. Many play styles can be accommodated with the approach of keeping the “Core” guidelines simple enough for a new player or quick match with large and detailed optional sections available for more inclined players to pick and choose from as their game is set up. The contributions received from players will dictate the options available.

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wreck:

Now I had 5 M8s to his two PzIVs. He knew where one gun of mine was. So he very cautiously worked forward to try to take on some of my infantry.

But I knew he had no guns left. I ran my two M8s from the hill on the right all the way around to his rear, where his guns had been. His tanks were encircled. They died. He gave up.

I would not have tried to pull that sort of maneuver, except that I knew there were no guns in his rear. That's gamey. (As it turned out, I could have killed his tanks from the front, since I won the first duel there before my encircling maneuver was complete; but that was by no means guaranteed.)

I would suggest that given the "must buy gun transports" rule, we do not need the gun-limits rule. And in fact that rule is at least sometimes gameable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been coresponding with Abbott about the optional rules for the CAL. So I would like to post here in supporting his efforts to get the CAL up and running so we can have a ladder to play in that is larely free of gmaey unit selection and powergamers.

BUT, we should probably try to propose some ammendment to the 3 gun rule, because as Wreck points out after the third gun is KO'd that player KNOWS there are no more guns. I think that is an issue and it should be addressed.

THe Rules are new and Abbott really wants to keep the "core" rules simple, so 3 was chosen as a "hard" limit, unfortunately that effects the fog of war because you can very effectively predict the maximum number of guns your opponent has. I hope a satisfactory resolutuion can be agreed upon.

Wreck does make a good point.

for the record if you are checking the Cal results Abbott destroyed me last night in a TCP/IP match, he had the Americans attacking in a Probe and won a Major victory and killed so many of my units he forced and early end to the game by making my side autosurrender because my morale was so low. In case you have never played Abbott let me tell you he plays VERY well, but he did get VERY lucky last night with more than his fair share of first shot KO's on my vehicles.

I'm sure we can all find some GOOD core rules for the CAL that will have the intented effect to limit gamey unit selection and power gamers using the system.

-tom w

[Wreck]

The transport class of guns and vehicles is shown on the buy screen in the QB generator; mouse over the unit in question. So it is not really that complex to match them up.

From memory, most transports (trucks and 'tracks) have class 8, meaning they can move everything except the monster AA guns. The jeepish things have class 4, meaning they can move inf guns and recoilless rifles.

[Wreck]

I certainly understand and agree with the push for simple rules -- in fact the simpler the better, ceteris paribus.

The specific case here is the CAL rules limiting guns. Without question, removing the 3-gun-limit rule makes a simpler ruleset. It is also good from the POV of eliminating gamey behavior like mine two days ago. The downside is that the must-buy-transport rule may not be enough to prevent guns from being an unbeatable bargain, as they are in normal TH play. And so if we remove 3-gun-limit, we might still end up with wall of guns type games. Perhaps even worse, actually, since there will be somewhat less of the infantry and tanks due to all the halftracks. It is hard to know if this is the case or not.

I suppose the only thing to do is experiment with the various rules and see what seems to work. My gut feeling is that must-buy-transport will have about the right effect. The german 75mm inf may be the biggest bargain in CM right now. 33 points for it is one thing; 58 points for it and a mostly useless truck... that's a lot more in line with other units.

Another thing we have to keep in mind, is the relevance of guns for attack/defense, especially defense. I have the feeling the 3 gun limit is going to make defense even harder than it is, and doubly so once the last gun is wiped out.

[Abbott]

CAL's mailing list is up and running.

The sign-up is located on the main CAL page and is open to TH members. http://tournamenthouse.com/CM/CAL

The list’s primary focus will be Opponents wanted and Guideline/Rule discussions.

I am looking forward to speaking with you there!

[ 05-03-2001: Message edited by: Abbott ]

[Redwolf]

I'm sceptical about the 3 guns rules as well.

Being able to count opponent's units is one of the worst things that can happen for a supposed to be realistic ladder.

Also, there is a problem that a number of German infantry companies already come with more than 3 guns. These preset infantry forces are a good thing in the CAL sense, IMHO and it would be bad to exclude some of them.

[aka_tom_w]

I know this idea/suggestion has not been posted up in this thread for very long, but I'm wondering if anyone else here had any comments on Wreck's idea of changing the three gun limit to as many guns as you want as long as you have something that CAN tow them, to tow them with, when you buy them?

Does anyone else have any other comments and or suggestions regarding the loss of FOW when it can be known that there is a maximum of only 3 guns (or more depending on the size of the battle)?

my opinion on this one is that the original rule that says a TRUCK or a Half Track must be purchased for every gun is a good rule and with that caveat you can buy as many guns as you want. I am supportive of ALL that Abbott has done to get this CAL ladder off the ground and look forward to the opportunity to actually WIn a game or two on the ladder without getting destroyed by Abbott's great tactics

-tom w

[ 05-03-2001: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[KiwiJoe]

The Attacking player and both players in Meeting Engagements will purchase halftracks or trucks capable of towing each gun purchased. (This makes the increased costs of guns something to consider and sometimes will add the missing Halftracks back into the force mix). Jeeps and Kulbewagon type vehicles will not count towards this total.

Ummmm 88mm AT guns are listed as "transport class 9 - no embarking during battle". You cant buy anything capable of towing them. Does this mean these guns are excluded from the rule?

[Abbott]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

The Attacking player and both players in Meeting Engagements will purchase halftracks or trucks capable of towing each gun purchased. (This makes the increased costs of guns something to consider and sometimes will add the missing Halftracks back into the force mix). Jeeps and Kulbewagon type vehicles will not count towards this total.

Ummmm 88mm AT guns are listed as "transport class 9 - no embarking during battle". You cant buy anything capable of towing them. Does this mean these guns are excluded from the rule?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Sdkfz Halftracked gun tractor is transport class 9. Embarking the 88's is not a problem.

[Redwolf]

The 88 can be towed, but you have to embark it during setup and once you disembark it it is immobile. Would fit the rule.

I don't want to be punished for using the 50mm AT gun as it was used historically, by choosing a battery of AT guns as a tank hunter detachment in lack of SP guns. I don't think that towed guns on the offensive are a problem. Anyone who tried the exact spotting rules of CMBO for a moving gun will be convinced that this is far from being exploitable for overly optimized tactics.

[KiwiJoe]

My bad

I havent done too much gun transporting up till now.

[Stalins Organ]

A question about the rules on the web page - vehicles are listed with a couple of values beside them - one is clearly the main armament calibre - what's the other?

eg

M5A1 Stuart 37/884 (what's the 884?)

M4A3(75)w+ 75/619 (what's the 619?)

M4 75/619 (ditto)

M4A1(76)w 76/793 (what's the 793?)

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike the bike:

A question about the rules on the web page - vehicles are listed with a couple of values beside them - one is clearly the main armament calibre - what's the other?

eg

M5A1 Stuart 37/884 (what's the 884?)

M4A3(75)w+ 75/619 (what's the 619?)

M4 75/619 (ditto)

M4A1(76)w 76/793 (what's the 793?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that is 884 meters per sec as the velocity of the round fired. (i.e. for the M5A1 Stuart 37/884 that 37mm velocity 884 m/sec)

I think...

-tom w

[Stalins Organ]

Ah....that makes sense!

thanks Tom.

[aka_tom_w]

you're welcome

-tom w

[aka_tom_w]

Bump

These additional optional rules have been proposed and discussed in the CAL e-mail list:

Here is what we have for Mechanized and Infantry games. Any other thoughts or additions?

1) Infantry (No vehicles)

Select Infantry force in CMBO.

"Towed guns will be limited to no more then 3 per side up to 1000 points spent. 1 gun per 1000 points spent thereafter. (Example 2,000-point game up to 4 guns allowed per side, 5,000-point game up to 7 guns per side). This includes all guns from the support category of CMBO.

(Artillery caliber limitations may be imposed by player agreement prior to game setup).

2) Mechanized (No Tanks)

Select Mechanized force in CMBO.

Towed guns will be limited to no more then 3 per side up to 1000 points spent. 1 gun per 1000 points spent thereafter. (Example

2,000-point game up to 4 guns allowed per side, 5,000-point game up to 7 guns per side). This includes all guns from the "support"

category of CMBO.

The Attacking player and both players in Meeting Engagements will purchase halftracks or trucks capable of towing each gun

purchased. (This makes the increased costs of guns something to consider and sometimes will add the missing Halftracks back into the

force mix). Jeeps and Kulbewagon type vehicles will not count towards this total.

(Artillery caliber limitations may be imposed by player agreement prior to game setup).

Guns Rule

Applies to ALL battle Types Below

"Towed guns will be limited to no more then 3 per side up to 1000 points spent. 1 gun per 1000 points spent thereafter. (Example 2,000-point game up to 4 guns allowed per side, 5,000-point game up to 7 guns per side). This includes all guns from the “support” category of CMBO. 

The Attacking player and both players in Meeting Engagements will purchase halftracks or trucks capable of towing each gun purchased. (This makes the increased costs of guns something to consider and sometimes will add the missing Halftracks back into the force mix). Jeeps and Kulbewagon type vehicles will not count towards this total."

2) Mechanized (No Tanks)

"SAME rules as Recon Rules ONLY no Tanks

just pick Mechanized force in CMBO and then there is no option to buy any tanks, ALL the same rules as recon forces apply."

3)Recon. Rule.

"The 'Recon Rule' game allows vehicles, including light tanks, to be included but limited to those with maximum 50mm guns.

The Germans can field Pumas.Halftracks, mortar carriers and flame-thrower vehicles are all allowed, but not flame-thrower tanks.

60mm, 75mm and 81mm mortars and FO’s are all allowed, 81mm being the maximum. There is no limit to the size of towed guns permitted."

4)Short-75. (as per posted rules at http://tournamenthouse.com/CM/CAL/THCAL.shtml)

5)Panther-76 (as per posted rules at http://tournamenthouse.com/CM/CAL/THCAL.shtml)

6)Heavy Armor. (as per posted rules at http://tournamenthouse.com/CM/CAL/THCAL.shtml)

I completely agree with Abbott when he wants to keep it simple.

If you select an Infantry battle in the "type" selection in CMBO you can have arty, guns and infantry and thats all.

So I would suggest the rules for an infantry battle state that:

Towed guns will be limited to no more then 3 per side up to 1000 points spent. 1 gun per 1000 points spent thereafter. (Example 2,000-point game up to 4 guns allowed per side, 5,000-point game up to 7 guns per side). This includes all guns from the “support” category of CMBO. 

No vehicles are permitted for either side in an infantry battle as defined by CMBO.

With Notes and Additions from Abbott

AGAIN these are proposals to balance out the playing field. These rule suggestions do not exactly address the issue of airbourne units that have no vehilces, and there are some suggested "loopholes" like the fact that the Germans can have 75 mm HT and Armoured cars in the Mechanized rules and the Allies only have the 37 mm Grey hound and the 40 mm Dailmer AC but can only use on such vehicle because they are different nationalities. (Oh well)

Still we are all working at Trying to make the CAL a great ladder to compete in so both players have a sense of fairness and cheery picking unit selection is not a SURE bet to win ladder games while using "the system".

Hope this helps

-tom w

(Just a side note, I have only played one CAL ladder game so far, in it Abbott destroyed my defending German force in Recon Rules, BUT I'LL BE BACK!)

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]