Bazooka fitness bias ?

[Donald Ingram]

Small question but it's bugging me. It's probably been asked before but I could find it on bulletin boards so ...

American and French Bazooka teams can run further than 'equivelant' AT teams without getting tired or weary. After doing some simple tests these are the approximate stats :

When running

British PIAT Team are tired at 60-75m, weary at 80-100m.

German Panserschrek Team are tired at 60-75m, weary at 80-100m.

Bazooka Team FR or US are still ready at 200m.

I assume that the bazooka is a lighter weapon however the amount of ammunition being carried is greater. Is the bazooka that much lighter ?

[Doug Beman]

I know darn well the weights/dimensions of the 'schreck, 'zook, and PIAT have been posted before, but can only find the 'schreck, whose tube reportedly weighed ~24 pounds. I think the PIAT was similar, given the mechanical higgledypiggledy that propelled the charge. My memory recalls seeing 'zook weight listed as less.

Anybody got the right book?

DjB

[Basebal351]

What?? Just 24 pounds? Then why in God's name do they get weary after 60m? Are they doing a flat out sprint, or just a moderate jog?? If it's a flat out sprint, then I can see how they would get weary so soon. But, if it's just a moderate jog, which I tend to think it is seing how far squads can run, then they should be able to go a bit further.

Well, whatever. I know it's been discussed before, in the past. And there's no way any changes will be made, so I guess I'll be moving on now...

Thanks,

Jim

[Jarmo]

IIRC, bazooka team has less/lighter ammo than piat/schreck teams.

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

IIRC, bazooka team has less/lighter ammo than piat/schreck teams.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Atually the bazooka teams generally carry 8 rounds but the schrecks only 5. This makes sense because the zook round is smaller. I assume that BTS modeled all of these teams to carry normal loads givin the size and weight of their rounds.

[Doug Beman]

Basebal, keep in mind that the 24 pound shreck tube is in addition to all other infantry gear, which means the tube carrier is probably carrying close to 80 pounds of higgledypiggledy.

DjB

[Dittohead]

Partial Info

PZSK - rounds - 7.27 lbs

tube - 65" long 24.2 lbs

Bazooka - Rds - 3.4 lbs

Plus after so many years of war the British and German troops were tired and out of shape.

[Los]

LOL! I'd like to shove a 24 pound akward weight plus two or three 7.5 lb plus AT rounds in Baseball's hands after he's already been loaded down with 50-60 lbs of other kit, personal weapon and other BS and see how winded he is after walking all day with the thing and then having to sprint 60 or 100 meters.

I'm not at home right now with the stats but I have held a 2.75" bazooka and it's lighter than an M1 (plus it can be broken down into two pieces.) And the rounds are half the weight plus easier to shove in a container or pocket if necessary as opposed to those Big fat PZch rounds.

As to the Piat, I can't say but will look up.

Los

(not that some of the fatigue rules can't be tweaked.)

[Tanaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

... is in addition to all other infantry gear...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmm.... what addition gear ? Don't forget that in CM, InfAT teams don't have C45/P38 or M1/G43

[109 Gustav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Los:

I'm not at home right now with the stats but I have held a 2.75" bazooka and it's lighter than an M1 (plus it can be broken down into two pieces.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An M1 weighs about 9.5 lbs, IIRC. Did you get to shoot the zook?

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Los:

LOL! I'd like to shove a 24 pound awkward weight plus two or three 7.5 lb plus AT rounds in Baseball's hands after he's already been loaded down with 50-60 lbs of other kit, personal weapon and other BS and see how winded he is after walking all day with the thing and then having to sprint 60 or 100 meters.

I'm not at home right now with the stats but I have held a 2.75" bazooka and it's lighter than an M1 (plus it can be broken down into two pieces.) And the rounds are half the weight plus easier to shove in a container or pocket if necessary as opposed to those Big fat PZch rounds.

As to the Piat, I can't say but will look up.

Los

(not that some of the fatigue rules can't be tweaked.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Other than in Para drops and in the Normandy landings troops would drop their provisional loadouts for a combat loadout which was significantly lighter.

When headed into combat soldiers would only carry the essentials (Ammo, weapons, survival gear, etc..)

I would assume that the battles CM is modeling consider that the troops are preparing for an attack and would only carry a combat loadout into the battle.

Bazooka M1: Technical data: length 139cm; weight (empty): 5.8kg; length projectile 55cm; weight projectile 2.8kg; Vo 105m/s

Total weight (launcher + 8 Rnds.): 28.2 Kgs

Bazooka M9(1944): Technical data: length 155cm; weight (empty): 6.5kg. Projectile data: Same as above.

Total Weight (launcher + 8 Rnds.): 28.9 Kgs

Piat: weight (empty) of 14.5kg and a total length (incl. warhead) of 99.1cm. Projectile data: shaped-charge projectile with a length of 38cm, a caliber of 8.9cm and weight of 1.13kg.

Total Weight (launcher + 8 Rnds.): 23.54 Kgs

Panzerschreck: Raketenpanzerbüchse 54 weighed 11kg (24.2 lb.)(empty). It was also modified to fire the newly developed RPzB.Gr.4992 which with a modification of the propellant had a better practical range (usually cited at 180m). This ammunition too came in a summer and a winter version.The armor penetration of both RPzB.Gr. 4322 and 4992 was 230mm (9 in.), at a 60° impact angle this figure was reduced to 160mm (6.3 in.). The ammunition was transported in a carrying frame holding 5 rounds, the wooden supply crates contained 2 rounds. A shaped charge of 660g (23.3oz.) and weighed 3.30kg (7.27 lb.)

Total Weight (Launcher + 5 Rnds.): 27.5 Kgs.

It would seem that the Germans are getting the shaft here.

Could BTS explain why the Germans seem to be inferior runners?

Jeff

------------------

I once killed a six pack just to watch it die.

[Los]

Actually Jeff, the loadout I'm talking about is the combat loadout minus the ruck. Anyone who's been a grunt particularly on real operations can vouch for lugging around web gear that is anywhere from 35 to 50 pounds, then add a 35-50 pound or greater ruck on top of that. While CM models the crews personal defense as some sort of stat that falls short of normal small arms, bazooka guys would normally carry a rifle or a carbine just like anyone else, to do anything less would be not very smart.

The bazooka I played around with was a 2.36" (I said 2.75 was mistaken) M18 which weighed 10 pounds (aluminum) and broke down into a nice two piece package similar to the stell and heavier 15 pound M9 bazooka. As you know the M9 was standardized as our main bazooka in 1943 and weighed in at 15 lbs. There are a few subvariants of the Panzerschreck that weigh in between 20.5 lbs and 24lbs.

Gustav:

No I did not get to fire it unfortunatley but I have fired a number of times the 90mm (the Pzsch is an 88mm) which was still in US in the US Army (in Rangers and available for SF) up until late eighties. Carrying that thing was like carrying your own personal cross but you should see the explosion it makes when you let one off!

Anyway with regard to bazookas and running. I'm trying to remember a discussion we had on the beta team IIRC I think the PZschrk guys could not even run at first and they upped it a certain amount. For all the stats being thrown around up here I do not remember off the top of my head what Steve and Charles are using for weights. I'll dig it up. I know for CM2 we've requested talked about relooking at the whole fatigue modelling routines.

Sorry I don't have a better answer yet.

Los

[Jarmo]

So the weights are not nearly what I thought.

I'm surprised.

I remember there has been a longish thread about this before,

but I don't seem to find it.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Jeff,

The part you are missing that really matters is that the weight each man is assigned to carry. It would be FAR easier to carry a lighter tube and the weight difference in rounds than it would be to lug around a much heavier tube and no rounds. So it is not just the total weight, but the akwardness of carrying it. The PS is a far heavier weapon (x2 in fact) and therefore much more difficult to carry.

Los' other observations also have meaning here.

As a side note, this has been debated, in very great detail, at least 3 or 4 times before. The case for PS teams being as capable of running at Bazooka and PIAT teams has never been successfully made.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

Jeff, your figure for the bazooka rocket weight is too high.

Panzerschreck: 24.2 pounds

Rocket: 7.2 pounds (x 5 = 36 pounds)

TOTAL = 60.2 pounds

Bazooka: 13 pounds

Rocket: 3.4 pounds (x8 = 27.2 pounds)

TOTAL = 40.2 pounds

Charles

[Doug Beman]

According to the figures here, the PIAT was even heavier than the PS. Can PIAT teams in CM run as well/better than PS? If so, how is this justified?

Not being accusatory, as the last time I played with UK type troops was sometime in late November. It seems, in every QB I play, if I choose Allied I get US troops. If I get UK troops, they're armored. If they're other than armor, they for some reason have no PIATs.

DjB

[Donald Ingram]

I can see this is a bit of an old chestnut and been covered before. Thanks for the answers. I should have known BTS has done their figures. I'll just have to put the PIAT teams through their paces and tell their Corporal to work a bit more on their fitness.

On a slightly different track ... it's occurred to me that the various high commands during World War II could have learnt a lot if they only had a copy of CM. I reckon the British in particular would have recorgnanised the composition of their Infantry Battalions. Less 2 inch mortars and more HMGs methinks. Thanks again for the answers.

[Basebal351]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Los:

LOL! I'd like to shove a 24 pound akward weight plus two or three 7.5 lb plus AT rounds in Baseball's hands after he's already been loaded down with 50-60 lbs of other kit, personal weapon and other BS and see how winded he is after walking all day with the thing and then having to sprint 60 or 100 meters.

Los

(not that some of the fatigue rules can't be tweaked.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Los, I have no objection to the data that you put forth, I can neither confirm nor deny at this time , but don't go making assumptions about ol' Basebal's physical fitness. When training for Mt. Ranier, I ROUTINELY worked out with a 40 pound pack on my back. And actually carried more when actually climbing up the mountain. And mind you, this is all on my back. Could I have run for any great distances? No, not really. Certainly no greater, or maybe not even as great a distance as the bazooka teams now. But, I know that they DIDN'T carry ALL of that stuff into battle. Espescially for having a second man on the team, it seems that their load would be quite a bit lighter. Wasn't it common practice, like ALL of the time, to leave behind non-essentials before entering into combat?? And, I also remember reading in an autobiography by an American soldier on the Western front, they would actually have their non-essential equipment (stuff they wouldn't need during the day) shipped in TRUCKS to their camp for the night!! They didn't carry all of their stuff, all of the time!! I agree that this issue could use a LITTLE tuning. No drastic changes, it just might need to be looked at.

Thanks,

Jim

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Combat essentials of a U.S. infantryman in WW II. Don't leave camp without it.

rifle

2 extra ammo clips, loaded

200 rounds, boxed or in bandoliers

helmet

bayonet

shovel

2-3 hand grenades

1 full canteen of water

bandage pack

and of course, the coat, clothes, boots, and whatever weather gear you are standing up in.

In the case of a bazooka man, he might dispense with the rifle and ammo, or more likely get his loader to carry an extra M-1 carbine for him. Or he might pack a 45 instead.

"Aw, what do you need a shovel for?" So the artillery doesn't kill you in the morning. Your new foxhole is going to be wherever the front is after this fight. No waiting, you dig in every night.

"Aw, what do you need a full canteen for?" There aren't any drinking fountains in combat. You'll sweat enough to soak your shirt, even in the winter. As Kipling put it "if it comes to slaughter you will do your work on water - and you'll lick the blooming boots of him that's got it". And it has to be a full canteen, because a half-empty one will make sloshing noises. That is why everyone drinks from the same one until it is dry - every canteen is either dry or full.

"Aw, what do you really need that helmet for?" The mortar round it will save you from.

"Aw, what do you need a bayonet for? Old hat, never used". It is your utility knife, wire cutter, commo-wire stripper, hacksaw, all in one. You may also have to probe for mines with it.

You need the bandage pack in case you or your loader's ass gets shot off, unless you'd rather bleed to death. You need the hand grenades to kill people who get too close to you, often out of sight and throwing the things at you, and one of them (if you are lucky) might be the smoke grenade that gets you out of Dodge alive.

And you need the coat or you will freeze in the Ardennes, and you will probably get trenchfoot anyway, but who cares the Germans are going to kill you before then anyway.

Then unless you are lugging a 15 lb bazooka, you will get some other useful job, because the above is not enough for one infanrtyman to carry into combat. Like, you can carry a bunch of bazooka rounds. Or a bunch of 60mm mortar rounds (the verticle version). Or a spare MMG barrel. Or part of its tripod. Or boxes of belted MG ammo. Or a box of grenades. Or if you are really lucky, the baseplate of a 60mm mortar, a solid slab of iron the size of the small of your back. Or a strap-on radio, that incidentally makes you a sniper-magnet.

That is essentials. No comforts of home involved. If you want a couple of chocolate bars for energy or a pack of smokes, that is your own affair. If you aren't in a location nobody can get to at the end of the day, and if they find you, some rear echelon youknowwhatever will bring you your bedroll, socks, and canned rations by, say, 8 AM the next day, when it will do you loads of good.

And what did the men say to each other about all of the above?

"What more could you possibly want?"

[Simon Fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Less 2 inch mortars and more HMGs methinks. Thanks again for the answers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Interestingly the British prewar organisation had organic MMGs (no such thing as a Brit HMG) in the battalion but they were removed. I don't know why but something to do with mobility I suspect. As for the 2" mortars I think they may have been used a little more for screening than we see in CM (ie more smoke). Even so I quite like them though I wish you could fit more than 1 2 man team (PIAT or mortar) in a carrier.

BTW thanks jshandorf for making this thread accessible to the rest of the planet.

------------------

Muddying the waters as usual.

[Slapdragon]

There is an interesting tidbit from WW2 that infantry, in combat, actually get in worse and worse physical shape also. For a US Infantryman, he is at his most physically fit about a week or two into deployment. From then on he would loose weight, stamina for running, and ability to carry heavy loads as time went on, until he would be used up unless taken off the line and fed / rested / given a chance to wind down. At the worse case he may have dysentary, the flu, skin problems, trench rot. One infantryman told a reporter, "If I was home, I would be in the hospital".

One of the problems with the Chrek verus Zook discussion is called a tipping point. A tipping point is a point over which things go down hill fast, and it works for weight. Logic would say that twice the weight makes you twice as tired, but in reality it is not so simple. Infantry like to go into battle with less than 18kg of weight if they are going to be trotting, far less if they want to outright sprint. Most weapon / ammo / water basic loads used for fighting are under that magic 18kg basic load limit. You can march with more on your back all day, but try and run with a lot more and you will be winded quickly unless you are in top shape (see the discussion above). Start getting over 25kg and loose the ability to run balls to the wall, throw yourself over fences, and dive for cover. Over 30kg and you are not going to do much running at all. Over 20kg, and the body feels each additional gram when doing anything more varied than route marching.

Now you see why the Chrek and the 50 calibre loads seem slow. As does the M1919 and the light mortars. Even divided, the crews have passed the equipment's tipping point in terms of mass. They can no longer do what a lighter loaded infantryman can.

This is why the M16 was adopted by the US after years of beating up the British for their .280 and the Ordnance office for their .276 fiasco. US military planners wanted to increase infantry ammunition loads above the 200 round or less then carried to 400 rounds+. They did exactly that in tests with the M14, and they found out that the extra weight was real restrictive even if it was just boxed and not in magazines. So the M16, developed for use in Vietnam, was given European tests and people basically liked it for the amount of ammo you could load an infantryman with, not to mention ammo loads in transport.

[Basebal351]

If someone would like to donate an actual working WW2 bazooka, American uniform, and the various equipment that accompanied the infantryman into battle, to me I would be more than happy to conduct tests on the matter .

Send the aforementioned supplies care of:

Basebal351

351 Baseball Lane

Cold-as-hell, Illinois

Thanks. Overnight shipping would be preferred.

-Jim

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Basebal351:

If someone would like to donate an actual working WW2 bazooka, American uniform, and the various equipment that accompanied the infantryman into battle, to me I would be more than happy to conduct tests on the matter .

Send the aforementioned supplies care of:

Basebal351

351 Baseball Lane

Cold-as-hell, Illinois

Thanks. Overnight shipping would be preferred.

-Jim<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you send me the postage, I will send you a 6kg mild steel pipe to test the zook and a 12kg szteel pipe to test the chrek. However you need to come down to SC so that you can run the Fort Jackson confidence course while I video tape it for posting the the Internet.