Calvin Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 Gents, Just played Wild Bill Wilder's scenario--- forget the name. Set in the Hurtgren forest and basically designed to illustrate the hopeless situation in which a company commander might find himself when subject to the whims of a far away HQ. Anyway, your ambushed, under heavy fire, and without armor. The enemy has a well-concealed Pz IV. Now what to do? The only asset provided is a few missions of 105. For those who have played more than I, is there any point in shelling AFV's? I realize they'll likely have to button up, but would there be any chance of knocking of a track? Do tell. Calvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 as in real life..maybe it will affect, maybe not. probably make the TC to button up, maybe if REAL lucky knock some stuff around or maybe damage a track. if the crew is green or shocked (maybe lost the TC) they MIGHT abandon....*shrug*...all a big "if" dude... ------------------ unca pathy will show ya the path, if only he could find it himself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Törni Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 If you are extremely lucky, arty might score a direct hit to the deck or top of the turret blowing the AFV apart. Highly unlikely though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fd ski Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 Edited SPOILER !!!! X X X X X X X Just played All or nothing scenario as Brits.. what a blast... Germany had XXXX and XXXXXXXX, 1 XXXXXXX got whacked when it walked into an ambush of X XXXXXXX ( what a tank too !!! ) XXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXXXXX stayed still too long and caught a bunch of XXXXXX artylery on them... Took a while for a XXXXXXX, but once it hit, it was all over What a scenario... did anyone ever win it as germans ? [This message has been edited by fd ski (edited 07-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 Calvin, Welcome aboard! That said, the Search function is your friend, giving you access to some 70,000 posts. And believe me, artillery effectiveness was, is, and remains a hot topic. Now, having pointed you on the path of search righteousness, I will give you an overview response. First of all, buttoning a tank does more than just causing the hatches to be closed. It greatly reduces the tank's ability to both acquire and engage targets and cuts the effective rate of fire. By way of confirmation, the U.S. Army officially considers a buttoned tank to be only half as effective as an unbuttoned one. Second, there is a small but nonetheless real possibility that whatever buttons the tank may injure the tank commander, potentially putting the crew into shock. Okay, that's buttoning. Let's talk about 105mm fire. It can: *immobilize the tank if it lands close enough, either via blast effects on the trackwork or through fragmentation damage to tracks and running gear *render the main gun and coax MG useless; this has happened to me in the far better protected Panther; might jam the turret *temporarily stun the crew through concussive effects from a direct hit *knock out the engine, either immobilizing the tank or immobilizing it and setting it afire; engine deck armor is thin, and there are lots of openings; I got a catastrophic kill with an 81mm mortar hit on a buttoned Stug III this way *a direct hit on the thin turret roof armor might penetrate; could conceivably blow in the vision blocks My suggestion? "Drop 200. Fire for effect!" Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 What about laying down smoke, and then maneuver? Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fd ski: Just played All or nothing scenario as Brits.. what a blast... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> CM is the coolest game in the world. Could I very politely request that you put SPOILER at the start of scenario-specific information about a certain side's forces in the future? Then put several blank spaces x x x x x ... before starting what you want to say? The reason is that many people are saving scenarios for double-blind play and don't want to know ANYTHING about what the opposing forces might have. There is even a separate forum for discussion of scenario-specific info, though sometimes you need examples to illustrate a point here. Thanks- lots of guys would appreciate this. We prefer to seek our glory or our doom in the grey mists of the unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgii2222 Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 Thanks, Mark IV. I'm in the middle of this scenario now, and had no Idea the Germies had such stuff. Oh well, chalk it up to aerial recon or something El Jeffe Georgii2222@hotmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The CM Borg Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fd ski: Just played All or nothing scenario as Brits.. what a blast<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have been assimilated ------------------ Resistance is Futile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The CM Borg Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Calvin: Just played Wild Bill Wilder's scenario--- forget the name. Set in the Hurtgren forest and basically designed to illustrate the hopeless situation in which a company commander might find himself when subject to the whims of a far away HQ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have been assimilated ------------------ Resistance is Futile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvin Posted July 19, 2000 Author Share Posted July 19, 2000 Hmmm... This CM Borg guy is getting a little frightening--- I suppose that's his intent. Well then, since we're all assimilated, let me say thanks to everyone for the valuable information above. Calvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fd ski Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: CM is the coolest game in the world. Could I very politely request that you put SPOILER at the start of scenario-specific information about a certain side's forces in the future? Then put several blank spaces x x x x x ... before starting what you want to say? The reason is that many people are saving scenarios for double-blind play and don't want to know ANYTHING about what the opposing forces might have. There is even a separate forum for discussion of scenario-specific info, though sometimes you need examples to illustrate a point here. Thanks- lots of guys would appreciate this. We prefer to seek our glory or our doom in the grey mists of the unknown. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My sincere appologies !!! I'm really sorry guys.. i'll edit my original post now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fd ski: Edited SPOILER !!!! X X X X X X X Just played All or nothing scenario as Brits.. what a blast...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I just finished my game as the British last night; I will post the fourth and last installment of my AAR with this scenario on the Usenet war-historical forum later today, and post some comments on the scenario in general here later. Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 In the Valley demo (still waiting for the game), I forced the German Panther crew to abandon ship by shelling with 105mm. I did not have any direct hits but some mighty close ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCrawler Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Calvin: Hmmm... This CM Borg guy is getting a little frightening--- I suppose that's his intent. Well then, since we're all assimilated, let me say thanks to everyone for the valuable information above. Calvin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, he is getting a bit annoying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 HE could damage alot of subsystems as John said. The radio would also be vulnerable to concussion since it was tube based. The antenna could easily be sliced off by shrapnel. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apex Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 deleted [This message has been edited by apex (edited 07-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 I would think any direct hit by arty greater than 75mm should have a pretty decent chance of taking out a tank directly. The top armor is pretty thin, and like many have said, a tank has all sorts of vulnerable equipment on top of it. That being said, trying to hit a single tank directly with artillery is extremely unlikely. Take the average dispersion of a fire mission in square meters. Take the average top surface area of an AFV in square meters. Divide the two, and you get a very small number. Even after multiplying by the number of rounds, it is apparent that the odds of a single round hitting an AFV are very slim. As someone pointed out, you do not actually have to hit one to effect it however. You can certianly kill any exposed crew members, or immobolize a tank with a near miss. I once took out three German halftracks with a single 105mm round, and it was a spotting round! How is that for lucky! Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 The real effect is on its ability to function with a immobilization/kill being a low possibility. Arty buttons up tanks/ blinds them due to smoke/dust, forces them to move, strips away infantry and coordination with them, disrupts aiming/firing, etc.. Of course being immobilised and under directed arty fire is a dangerous thing for a tank. probably better to take off once the chance presents itself. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Deych Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 I had a Tiger immobilized by a near miss from a tank gun. I guess the shrapnel snapped the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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