Brummbar

[Guest Mongo Lloyd]

I know there have been some earlier threads about people wishing that the Brummbar had been includedbut I wanted to throw another one out there. In the past threads the reply from BTS has been that the minimum range of the gun was too long to be of much use in a game with the scale of CM. I watched a tape of a show called "Achtung Panzer" in which they discussed the use and effectiveness of various German combat vehicles. In their piece on the Brummbar they specifically said that it was designed to roll up to fortified positions and blast them from point blank range. I don't want to whine too much but I think that the Brummbar is a really interesting vehicle and I think it is kind of a shame that it was not included. Any comments BTS?

[Phoenix]

Since BTS is not going to add it now the

question is kind of pointless.

Was the Brummbar used in the East? I don't. kow. If it was maybe it'll show up in CM2.

I thought the main argument for no Brumbar in CM was that it was extremely rare.

[sturmtiger101]

Greetings,

The Brummbar was in fact employed on the Eastern Front from summer of '43, on. The first brummbar battalion was a part of the 656 heavy tank destroyer regiment of Model's 9th Army on the northern flank of the Kursk salient during Operation Citadel. A CM2 scenario or two including this vehicle would be pretty cool...

Cheers

[Francesco]

Hi!

Brummbar was not included in CM because it didn't took part in western front during all 1944/45. Hope to see it in Italian and russian fronts in CM2 or later...

Bye!

Francesco

[KLilly]

IIRC the Brumbar was specifically designed to assist in urban fighting, e.g. fights like Stalingrad. By the time it was ready the Whermacht was backing up, and thus it was never really useful.

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix:

Since BTS is not going to add it now the

question is kind of pointless.

Was the Brummbar used in the East? I don't. kow. If it was maybe it'll show up in CM2.

I thought the main argument for no Brumbar in CM was that it was extremely rare. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Brummbar and Strumtiger were used for street fighting, designed to blast a building to bits in a single shot. They employed mostly in Stalingrad.

[Guest machineman]

Here's a link to a page on the Sturmtiger, with a movie of it demolishing a building.

http://www.geocities.com/madsin72/esturmti.html

Very cool.

[Lindan]

I think you are mixing things up here.

The Brummbär was fielded from 43 on. (This was AFTER Stalingrad ) It wasn't used in the west. The Sturmtiger was very rare, fired a nice 38cm rocket and an experienced crew needed around 12 minutes to reload it. See some nice pictures on

www.nahverteidigungswaffe.de

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Croda: "You hang out with a guy named "Warphead?"

"Nuts!" "

visit lindan.panzershark.com

[The Commissar]

Lindan,

In your post, you said that it took 12 minutes to reload the Sturm tiger, but I can't imagine why!

I realise that the shell weights in at more then half a ton, but is this the only thing which slows down the loading process? Or is the loading itself a complex matter?

Im sort of interested in this vehicle, so any info would be appreciated.

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Guest Mongo Lloyd]

Here is a link where they say that the Brummbar was used on the Western Front. They mention it near the bottom of the page and don't give any details. http://www.achtungpanzer.com/brum.htm

[Formerly Babra]

The Sturmtiger had to be loaded externally, with an accompanying crane vehicle, did it not? Or maybe I'm thinking of another beast.

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Years have passed and I keep thinking what a fool I've been;

I look back into the past and think of way back then;

I know that I lost everything I thought that I could win;

I guess I should have listened to my friends

All the burning bridges that have fallen after me;

All the lonely feelings and the burning memories;

Everyone I left behind each time I closed the door;

Burning bridges lost forever more

[Guest machineman]

Post changed to allow the Brummbar a thread of its own. I leave the Sturmtiger to rust in peace...

[This message has been edited by machineman (edited 12-11-2000).]

[Bastables]

Maybe another search is in order, culled from an old thread.

"298 Sturmpanzers eh? Well their 1st combat debut on the western front was during the fighting around the German border under 2, KP, Sturm-Pz Abt 218: 10 Sturmpanzer IV. Considering that the FlaKpzIV numbred 8 to a Panzer Regt well draw your own conclusions.

The Bulge attacks Wacht am Rhein and Nordwind Sturm-Pz.Abt.271 (31 veh) was deployed as reserve, on the 8-18 Dec before they even got near combat an entire coy of 14 Sturmpanzers were shifted towards the Eastern front." Forgot to add these were the only Brummbar units which may have seen action.

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From the jshandorf

"Why don't we compare reality to the game like Bastables likes to do all the time?"

Mr T's reply

"Don't touch me FOO!"

"Yes that's right Jerry, RUN, Run for your little lives because Tommy's gotten close enough to assault mhahahahah."

Nizam al-Mulk, (Order of the realm) In speaking of his superb disregard of maneuver warfare, in the destruction of OGSF hamsters who then carried on to flee the battle in their own notion of maneuver warfare. Tally HO!

[Lindan]

The only thing for me to add is that a Sturmtiger is on display in the Technikmuseum Sinsheim, Germany.

As already stated the picture is to be seen on www.jagdtiger.de.

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Croda: "You hang out with a guy named "Warphead?"

"Nuts!" "

visit lindan.panzershark.com

[Tiger]

I believe the topic post is referring to the Brummbar, not the Sturmtiger. Its official designation was StuGIV 15cm StuH43 infantry assault gun. The Brummbar was a panzer IV chassis variant mounted with a StuH43 150mm gun plus one more mg (not sure where but probably next to the ball-mounted 150mm gun). It was in full-scale production from November '43 and production continued up to the end of the war. Total number of units was 298. It did see service in the west-- europe & italy--front, but was initially used on the East front. The final version also had a ball mounted mg in the upper left front plate. hull armor was 80mm, turrent (fixed) armor was 100mm. The Brummbar is the one German vehicle that I wish had been included in CMBO..oh to mod it!

*sigh*

-john

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 12-11-2000).]

[Doug Beman]

My god, machineman has "posting diahrrea!!"

DjB

[Guest AbnAirCav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger:

The Brummbar is the one German vehicle that I wish had been included in CMBO..oh to mod it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, to be able to use Tiger's mod!

I'm with ya, dude, color me in as a vote for the Brummbar!

[Guest machineman]

I did wonder about posting such a monster. Nicest article on the Sturmtiger I've seen though. For some reason it's link address did not show up on the old thread I got it from.

[Guest Mongo Lloyd]

machineman: "I did wonder about posting such a monster. Nicest article on the Sturmtiger I've seen though. For some reason it's link address did not show up on the old thread I got it from."

Actually, this thread was about the Brummbar. Nothing against the article you posted but I was never suggesting that the Sturmtiger should have been included in CM. I guess the two tend to get lumped together because they look similar, it seems that every time a thread starts on one of them the other shows up in it.

[Guest Napoleon1944]

We need these vehicles. Where is the logic? If you have the Wespes and Nashorns providing tactical support, then you should field the close support tanks.

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Napoleon1944:

We need these vehicles. Where is the logic? If you have the Wespes and Nashorns providing tactical support, then you should field the close support tanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can only conclude after numerous posts on this topic the logic is that the Nashorns and Wespe were more commonly found on the Western Front during this time period, while historically the Brummbar (the topic of this thread) and the Sturmtiger (which is not), were extraordinarily uncommon on this front, to the point where there is a question of whether they ever saw action at all within the context of CMBO. Their lack of inclusion isn't based on a question of tactical useage, but actual useage within the parameters of CMBO.

Why, then, would we need these vehicles? I have nothing against their inclusion, except the fact that CM1 is a done deal. Likely they will be included in CM2, which is still a possibility, and where including them makes far more sense.

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Tremble, tyrants and you perfidious opprobrium of all the parties,

Tremblez! your parricidal projects finally will receive their prices!

But these sanguinary despots, But these accomplices of Berli,

All these tigers which, without pity, Bauhaus the centre of their mother!

We will enter the career When our elder is not there any more,

We will find there their dust And the trace of their virtues

[This message has been edited by Seanachai (edited 12-12-2000).]

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Napoleon1944:

We need these vehicles. Where is the logic? If you have the Wespes and Nashorns providing tactical support, then you should field the close support tanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My shermans arn't good enough I require Challanger 2's. I mean really.

You should be using StuH, StuG, Sherman 10,5cm or the CS British tanks for front line infantry/bunker cracking, aka the veh which saw more service on the western front than a 'pherhaps' 27 Brummbar's.

[Guest Napoleon1944]

The Super Pershing is highly uncommon, but was probably added for fun. I think the Brumbar and Sturmtiger should be added for the same reason. The Brumbar was in combat in the bulge. The more options the better. Might as well throw in a Maus for more of a "fun factor". Obviously this is not a question of historical rareness i.e. Super Pershing.

[patboivin]

If they are going to add these super tanks in the game, they should take load bearing capacity of bridges into account.

It could be a random value, within a certain range depending on the type of bridge. To confuse players even more, damaged bridges could support less weight, and so no one would have a clear idea of how much weight a given bridge is able to support.

Super-heavy tanks should mangle roads (even paved), and could possibly bog down even on dirt roads. Here the Maus is a good candidate.

The Maus would be nice. Count me in. If they are doing the Eastern front, I would also like to see Big Bertha in action as well, perhaps as off-board artillery? I would like to see what kind of craters it would create. Train artillery too? About 200mm and up.

Can the game engine support multiple guns on the same tank, I wonder. They will have to, I suppose, if they are going to do those bizarre Russian tanks with multiple turrets. Imagine keeping track of all those lines of fire, my Pentium Pro will slow to a crawl.

Ah, how quickly games can get out of control... A search for the various historical vs. gamey modes threads is perhaps in order now.

I want to be able to design my own vehicles. The Tiger Ausf E.100 comes to mind, as well as the U.S. prototypes... I want something I can use for target practice.

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A battlefield is a place where corpses are made. If you are sure you will die, you will survive. If you have your heart set on getting out alive, then you will die.

Good commanders are as if they were sitting in a leaking boat or lying under a burning roof: when they can baffle the planning of the intelligent and present no target for the rage of the brave, then they can take on opponents.

-- Wu Qi's Art of War