To Grid or Not to Grid! Discuss this inside.....

[Leclerc]

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[This message has been edited by Leclerc (edited 07-22-2000).]

[MERC]

I have started using the "GRIDS". I find it usefull, but there is still no substitute for LEVEL 1 view.

I think the "Grids" is tool that help convey the information should be evident by looking at the terrain.

Hopefully, others will continue their work on developing terrain tiles that are less obtrusive as the "GRIDS".

[Aszurom]

Erm... Hi.

I'm pretty stunned that my lil' mod caused such a debate. I was just sitting here tuesday night thinking... "I wish..." and cooked up a grid. It turned out pretty keen, so I sent it to Matt. The rest is history.

In order to make Cpt. Foobar happy, I did this today... (I wonder how many people will jump out of windows when they see this?)

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http://www.coregamer.com/combat/hexscape.jpg

[Sten]

Blasphemer! Blasphemer!

[Sten]

Blasphemer! Blasphemer!

We have vowed never to behold hexes ever again and yet you trick us to this. You surely must be the spawn of the Dark Lord of cardboard and dice!

Sten

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Keep your whisky on the rocks and your tanks on the roll.

[Smoker]

Bring on the grid! I love it, but it would be nice to be able to turn it off for the movies.

Smoker out.

[ianc]

Grid is good.

There have been alot of people here saying it's gamey. This goes back to the argument about the Unit Nav screen; the info is already there. This is just a tool to make it easier to gather.

If the aesthetics of the grid don't appeal to you, that would be a big reason not to use it. I find myself not using it to judge range or distance (although this is helpful), but rather to get a better impression of the small undulations in the terrain that in real life would be obvious, but are not in the game due to resolution issues.

ian

[chrisl]

Just to be difficult: How about some topo lines...

I know this has been discussed, and there are plenty of reasons not to have them (major CPU hit), but would people claim that they're unrealistic? Most maps that I use have both topo lines and grids (and I sometimes add finer detail to the grids with a pencil).

How about UTM coordinates? Would be very useful for discussing games, not terribly useful for much else-- I can already use the terrain squares to judge distance pretty well. Height is a little tougher (because I'm stuck with 640x480?).

One thing that I've often wondered, and not seen here, is the availability of good topo maps of France/Germany in 1944-45 (to each side). Today we can use things like SRTM to map the entire plant to ~40 m resolution in about 2 weeks, and when I combine that with a cheap GPS I know where I am to within a few meters. Even with map and compass I can estimate pretty well where I am. If I had to do it every day I'd probably be very good and very fast at it.

What was available then, mapwise, and in what quantity?

Most of the maps I see in the US Army historical site are rough sketches, with no topo information-- are these things that were made later to figure out what rally happened?

[iggi]

you can kind of make a topo line effect. Go into the Bmp files that were changed and color over each bmp grid line in a different color. So Bmp # xxxx has grid line of one color and Bmp xxxx+1 has grid lines of another color. Elevations should really stick out. Plus you keep the nice game textures.

[OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chrisl:

Just to be difficult: How about some topo lines...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This thought has occured to me before, as I'm sure it has to many others. No idea if this is possible or practical, but topo lines on say View 8 might be useful. I wouldn't want them on every view, for the same "aesthetic" reasons as grids. But on view 8 or 7, topo lines would perhaps mimic the battle maps available to commanders in the field.

Another .02c, which makes .04c

[chrisl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!:

This thought has occured to me before, as I'm sure it has to many others. No idea if this is possible or practical, but topo lines

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I think it's actually been discussed nearly to death here. It's probably pretty impractical to make topo lines like you see on a real topo map, since they'd take some time to compute, and would probably be more than a bit ugly.

The issue I was trying to raise was whether they'd be considered unrealistic. A 1:24000 map (commonly available in the US-- free download from USGS) doesn't have good enough resolution to find a hull down position, but it will certainly give you a good impression of the terrain.

[iggi]

I just played around with the grid lines that I downloaded. The affected Bmps are 1550-1569 giving you a Bmp for each level,(20 levels).

The toughest part was having the grid lines made. After that has been done, it is VERY easy to change each Bmp's grid line to a separate color. The effect is great, as elevation clearly sticks out with a different colored grid line. I tried modifying the modified Bmps. Just beautifull.

[Guest aaronb]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by iggi:

The effect is great, as elevation clearly sticks out with a different colored grid line.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, show us! If you can't post a screenshot, send it over to Madmatt.

[MrPeng]

Oh, iggi. ANIMATED SMILIES!?

I loathe you.

Peng

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

(crawling back inside through broken window, with hands still over ears, and saying "la la la, i cant hear you" )

SS PL and I are going to settle this once and for all!!!

OK, the battle has commenced between that filthy libertine SS Panzy, and myself.

He is playing with grid lines, and I am playing without, on a very hilly map.

If I win, grid sucks....

If He loses, people should play without grid..

We will keep you posted on the progress of this life/death slapfight. =

[ianc]

iggi,

did you use gradations of the same color to modify the existing modifications to the grid color and range them from darkest-lowest to brightest-highest?

Give us some screens laddie!

ianc

[pritzl]

Use the grids, don't use the grids, I really don't care. However, if this is something that makes an appearence in future versions of Combat Mission, I damn well better have the option to turn them off.

[iggi]

What I did with the CM demo was give different bmps different colors. The work was crude. It was not ment to be pretty, just a good way to sense topography. It worked pretty well actually with the demo.

What this mod that is available at CMHQ does tho is allow you to modify just the grid lines and not the whole bmp. This keeps a natural look to the field.

I downloaded the file yesterday and changed a few bmps an hour ago. I like the effect. try it out yourselves. I have not prepared a set of 20 bmps. I'm just playing around with them.

Other than just changing the color of the grid lines, there's another idea toying in my head. You can also increase the number of grid lines to get that overhead topo look.

For grid color changes, I guess you can just pick a color and go through many hues. I'll just have to try diff stuff out.

[JeffRaider]

I'm not going to use the grids. I like the way they look in the screenshots, but I just think it would detract from overall emmersion. I hate seeing the grid lines currently in the game, anyway.

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Jeff Fraser

The Wargamer's Combat Mission Central

http://www.wargamer.com/cm

[Joe Shaw]

Iggi, to hell with the grid lines, how'd you do the smilies?

Joe

[Aszurom]

Idle hands do the devil's work...

I cooked up topographical as well as damn near invisible gridlines for those who felt they were useful but unsightly.

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[This message has been edited by Aszurom (edited 07-22-2000).]

[Kestrl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mfred:

What next, first people want Hull down command added, now a grid!!!

Might as well take all the challenge out of the game. Maybe winning is everthing.

PBEM games will suffer, especially fog, or night games if both people are not using the grid.

The Grid would only be part realistic if a unit could see grid from camera 1.

My 2 cents worth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Mfred,

I think its all about winning for most people and getting the greatest advantage, they don't want a challenge or use any strategy and when they win its just a hollow victory. I don't really care if people use this Grid terrain because i won't be playing against them in a PBEM game.

I enjoy the historical part of Combat Mission and wouldn't use something like that. I also believe PBEM game will suffer because people are using grids. I don't think its realistic or historic.

[Törni]

I don't believe my eyes anymore! First the grid and here come the hexes. As I said, no wonder that the wargaming society does no aquire any new blood, since it time after time retards back to non-flexible dinosaurian thinking and traditions.

[Smoker]

I think the grid allows us to evaluate the terrain more realistically. Subtle dips and rises that can be utilized are much more readily apparent. In real life we would have no problem discerning them. Why should it be more difficult in CM?

Grids for realism!

No grids for eye candy.

Smoker out.

[Aszurom]

I just got confirmation from the CM team... the 1.03 patch is going to include the hex terrain. Furthermore, they're going to base LOS on the hexes and change the base graphics into counters for each unit type.

The hex terrain was a joke, duh. And I thought it was pretty damn funny too. Laugh, dammit.