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OpenGL for CM 2 ?

Freak

By Freak
in Combat Mission Archive #2 (2000)

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Freak Senior Member

Freak

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This is directed for the BTS team. I was wondering if any thought has gone into CM 2's graphics api set. I remember posting a thread about which method would be used to create CM's graphics a while back (before the beta demo). I remember the answer being rave, which you said was the more compatible api for the mac platform, although you did mention it would run on 3dfx hardware as well.

My question is, will BTS consider using OpenGL for its next CM iteration? The reason I ask, is, I believe that OpenGL is the more compatable graphics implementation on the mac over rave. OpenGL runs well on both Ati and 3dfx hardware, whereas rave is really an Ati exclusive, leaving out some of the 3dfx card owners such as the voodoo 3. Rave does run on 3dfx's voodoo 4 and 5, but the voodoo 4 and 5 cards are not known for great rave support.

In close, I hope BTS uses OpenGL for its next release of its CM iteration.

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Schrullenhaft Senior Member

Schrullenhaft

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I obviously can't speak for BTS, but my impression is that they will continue to program CM with the QuickDraw RAVE and DirectX APIs.

I believe that it would be too much work at this point to change the API to OpenGL. Changing the APIs now would probably add another year to the development of CM2. On the Mac side this could help with OS X compatibility. On the PC side most cards' drivers are currently geared towards DirectX (though a lot of the FPS games push OpenGL), especially since this is what Microsoft is pushing. MS doesn't officially support OpenGL anymore (internal development) from what I've heard. Another thing to consider is exactly what the OpenGL API is capable of in regards to rendering the effects in CM. I assume it should cover everything that needs to be displayed, but there may have to be quite a bit of re-coding to make everything work the same.

Depending on how the APIs are developed and supported over the next coming years, BTS will probably go over to the OpenGL API after CM2 (as a guess).

[This message has been edited by Schrullenhaft (edited 11-15-2000).]

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Guest Madmatt

Guest Madmatt

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To the best of my knowledge supporting OpenGL is not planned now or in the future.

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 11-15-2000).]

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Freak Senior Member

Freak

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Yes, I was under that impression as well.

The reason I would like to see BTS choose OpenGL over rave in CM's future releases is that it is the more compatible api of the two for the macintosh platfrom. Rave, only works on Ati hardware (voodoo 4 and 5 though do work but not fully optimized it seems). OpenGL , works on both cards, Ati and 3dfx, making OpenGL the more compatible api for macintosh 3d card owners.

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Guest Madmatt

Guest Madmatt

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I will have to get Charles to weigh in here about the specifics of OpenGL suppport but CM will probably always be programmed on a Mac so don't worry your little heads about that.

Steve and Charles are about as Mac Happy as I have ever seen and have no plans to abanden Mother Mac.

Madmatt

"The Mac is Mother...The Mac is Father..."

Macylon 5

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aikidorat Senior Member

aikidorat

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Madmatt,

I see that employment by BTS has finally let you see the light! An almost positive, though sarcastic, remark about the mac from you. It's a start!

smile.gif

(just couldnt resist, what with all the little mac jabs you've given me this year. smile.gif )

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History is made at night

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Jeff Heidman Senior Member

Jeff Heidman

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Jeff Heidman wrote:

> Damn, there goes 7 sales for BTS...

Now now Jeff, that's no kind of attitude to bring into a Mac-centric thread like this. How could you possibly forget Mrs Miggins's pet dog Floyd? The total is a very definite 8+.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry, David, I just couldn't resist.

For the record, I apologize to both Mac owners for suggesting that their chosen gaming platform might be marginalized and/or insignificant in any meaningful way.

Jeff Heidman

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aka_tom_w Senior Member

aka_tom_w

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I saw the Public Beta of Mac OSX run on a dual processor 500 mHz G4 yesterday at Apple Canada, it was a free public demonstration.

The Mac will now have three kinds of apps in the future when Os X comes out in the first quarter of 2001....

the Classic App (as CM is now, runs on OS 9)

the Carbonized App (classic App cleaned up for OS X)

The Coco App (Written new from the Ground up to take the most advantage of Mac OS X code)

The new Mac OS X will have BUILT in multi- processor support so if you want CM to SCREAM on a fast Dual Processor Mac It should at the very least be Carbonized for Mac OS X, then I think it can take advantage of mulit tasking and protected memory and dual processors.

The Open GL question is a big one. I think CM will need open GL support to move beyond Mac OS 9.

I would strongly suggest that BTS apply to Apple for Preferential Developer Status (Since they Actually are ONE), and get the latest Developer tools and software and a discount on buying hardware from Apple.

just a few rambling thouhgts

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 11-16-2000).]

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Jeff Heidman Senior Member

Jeff Heidman

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Could CM use multi-processor support? It takes quite a bit more than just using a multi-processor capable OS or programming language. You have to actually code the capability in, and that is not trivial.

Having done some multi-processor programming, I would be surprised if BTS decided it was worth the effort. Is there enough processing that could happen sequentially to make any difference? The only amount of time that CM takes is in AI for single player games and turn generation. I could see plenty of room for multi-tasking in the AI (maybe), but turn generation is probably pretty sequential.

Not to mention the fact that only a very small fraction of people have dual processor systems to begin with.

Jeff Heidman

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David Aitken Senior Member

David Aitken

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Jeff Heidman wrote:

> It takes quite a bit more than just using a multi-processor capable OS or programming language.

As far as I know, any Carbon (optimised for Mac OS X) or Cocoa (coded from scratch) compliant program will benefit from multiple processors. Apple has done a lot to ensure that programs will fit seamlessly into the OS X environment.

> Not to mention the fact that only a very small fraction of people have dual processor systems to begin with.

Currently the three basic flavours of G4 (read: professional Mac) are single-processor 400MHz, dual-processor 450MHz and dual-processor 500MHz. They'll probably go back to single processors once Motorola have bumped the clock speed up a bit (more of a PR than a technical issue).

David

button.gif

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War is about killing people. You give orders which will help to end the war, not orders which will save your men, because your men will only stop dying when the war is over. – D.A.

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aka_tom_w Senior Member

aka_tom_w

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Could CM use multi-processor support? It takes quite a bit more than just using a multi-processor capable OS or programming language. You have to actually code the capability in, and that is not trivial.

Having done some multi-processor programming, I would be surprised if BTS decided it was worth the effort. Is there enough processing that could happen sequentially to make any difference? The only amount of time that CM takes is in AI for single player games and turn generation. I could see plenty of room for multi-tasking in the AI (maybe), but turn generation is probably pretty sequential.

Not to mention the fact that only a very small fraction of people have dual processor systems to begin with.

Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Dave said,any carbonized app and any coco app that will run on Mac OS X will have multi-processor support because it is build into the Mac OS X operating system. If BTS wants CM2 to run and Mac OSX it will need to be Carbonized and then it should gain the inherent benefit of multi processor support.

-tom w

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GriffinCheng+ Senior Member

GriffinCheng+

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Actually, as a owner of both Inter/Win and PPC/Mac platform, I would love to see more OpenGL in the upcoming CM2. Actually, quite a lot of Win PC games titles are running engines based on OpenGL -- from current BG2 (FX only) to earlier MDK2, from a user pov, my GeForce DDR screams in OpenGL mode.

Griffin.

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"+" is just the beginning. Expect to see "GriffinCheng76", "GriffinCheng(105)" or "GriffinChengA3E8" more should Forum problems occur again :(

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Fatmac Junior Member

Fatmac

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What about Quesa. Contrary to popular belief, quickdraw 3d runs on just about any platform, including windows 2000/9x. See http://www.quesa.org.

The truth of the matter is that Quickdraw 3d has a lot higher level routines than does OpenGL. OpenGL is more comparable to apple's low level Rave driver than it is to QD3d.

Anyways, the point of this post is that if BTS wanted to stay with qd3d on osx (or even unix), they could through the Quesa libraries, a free implementation (hack or reverse engineer) of qd3d api.

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aka_tom_w Senior Member

aka_tom_w

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NEW YORK -- Breathtaking Is Not Usually a Word Associated With Computer Operating Systems.

But in looking at Apple's new Mac OS X, it's captures both the aesthetic and technical enhancements both on the surface and underneath the beta release.

For this six-year Mac user, test-driving the beta was a lot like sitting behind the wheel of a powerful, stylish new car still parked on the showroom floor.

I got to feel the heft of the engine and play with some of the shiny-new features -- but going anywhere with it left lots to the imagination.

The Mac OS X (say ten) beta did fine while I watched DVDs, listened to MP3s, tested some new and old applications and surfed the Web. But it is after all a beta, or pre-release version. So it is infested with bugs and prone to application and system crashes.

And crash it did, repeatedly, throughout my testing on a slick, new G4 Cube.

That's to be expected, of course. A beta's mission is to expose kinks -- and in the case of this particular operating system -- for which Apple is actually charging $29.95 -- to generate a sizable pile of hype.

Apple chief executive Steve Jobs, himself a master of hype, wanted the newest Mac OS to handle the demands of Apple's high-end customers, who use the platform for graphics, video and music, and its growing base of new iMac consumers.

When the final version is released next year (Apple says neither a price nor a date has been set), the new OS will have been honed thanks to input from developers.

Mac operating systems -- the first was introduced in 1984 -- have always been strong on sophisticated graphics support and subsequently integrated networking and Internet access. All the while maintaining Apple's tenured reputation for simplicity.

But market share is a problem.

The current version, OS 9, is installed on 1.2 percent of the consumer market, which Microsoft's Windows dominates with 88 percent.

Imagine Mr. Jobs asking himself (repeatedly) "How do I erode Microsoft's near monopoly?"

The structure of Mac OS X answers that question, at least partially. Its core is a variant of Unix, a command-based operating system as stable and reliable as the corporate networks and Web servers it runs.

In addition, the source code is open, which means Apple is for the first time giving third-party developers plenty of opportunity to brainstorm add-ons -- as well as write new software.

The Unix core software allows for protected memory, pre-emptive multitasking and multiprocessing -- all firsts for a Mac OS. What that means is you will be able to do more, in less time, and, increasingly, all at once. You will also be able to run old programs.

Like its Windows competitors and unlike the current Mac operating system, Mac OS X gives and takes memory resources from open applications, making them and the system itself harder to crash.

The new OS also better shares the power of Apple's speedy G4 processor.

Apple hopes to kiss goodbye the days when one crashed program requires a restart -- and probably a loss of work.

Max OS X also supports the dual processors Apple is offering in its new line of G4s, which means the system can spread its processes along with those of other applications simultaneously.

As yet, very little software has been written for OS X -- but big-name software firms including Adobe and Macromedia are racing to retool their applications for the new OS: Think graphic artists, movie makers, Web designers.

For such demanding users, the Mac OS X must be lightning quick -- and it was -- as fast as any Mac I've ever used and I use a 500 Mhz dual processor G4 Power Mac running OS 9 daily in my work as a graphics artist.

The operating system does require a lot of resources, though Apple promises the release version will require only 64 MB of RAM, half of what the beta needs to run. It also takes up 1.5 GB of hard drive space.

Apple promises the OS will support hardware, like Apple's Airport wireless Ethernet networking system, which was not incorporated into the beta. Printing support on the beta is also slim, an unacceptable impediment for most regular users.

Artists and gamers will like Mac OS X's support for Open GL, the industry's most widely used 3D rendering technology.

But the hallmark of the Mac OS is its renowned simple-to-use graphical user interface, which runs on a system layer called Quartz. Based on Adobe's PDF technology, it is hands-down the most visually dynamic system I've ever used.

The new liquid-blue interface, Aqua, takes full advantage of the graphic technology that has made Apple a leader in multimedia. Aqua boasts photo-quality icons, slick drop shadows, transparent window panes and color rollover buttons that adorn and aid the navigation,

Like its competitors Windows NT and Windows 2000, Mac OS X is built for multiple users so instead of the familiar one-for-all desktop,

Aqua loads up with a log-in screen where a profile of preferences is created for each user, giving individuals access to distinct home, system, library, document and desktop folders.

Another addition to the desktop is the visually stunning Dock, where open applications and documents will collaspe and reside. Though a bit distracting and obtrusive, the interactivity of the Dock gives the design a bit of personality.

The beta comes with pre-release version of Microsoft's Internet Explorer, a mail program plus a host of small OS X apps.

Long-time users may complain of a learning curve, given how much OS X differs from its predecessors. But the stability, speed and visual stunningness of the new system far outweigh the familiarity of the old.

One important note of advice, though:

I wouldn't recommend installing OS X unless you're an experienced computer user who doesn't mind weathering a beta's turbulence.

from:

http://detnews.com/2000/technews/0011/23/technology-152575.htm

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