Guest Rex_Bellator Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Oh dear. With an average difference of 1 in favor of the Panzer IV v's Daimler, and an average difference of 1.4 in favor of the Sherman v's Panzer IV the game is suggesting that: You'd have much more chance of killing that Panzer IV with your Daimler in a straight clear shoot out, than you'd have of killing that Sherman with your Panzer. Hmmm, doesn't seem right does it. What do the experts think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 I had tiger killed at 600 meters by hit on weak spot from that 40mm Dailmer gun. The problem was that tiget ignored the Dailmer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 I have to go to school but one last thing. I love this game and I am not trying to point out weaknesses but I do love DISCUSSING these intricacies with the group. I will check in tonight or tomorrow morning. I find the Panzer IV's vunerability somewhat concerniong but then again what do I know. By the way if anybody knows of someone who served on Submarine Chaser 756 (SC756) in WWII please contact me. My grandfather did and I want to help him find his buddies. Anyways till later. ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blitzkrieg Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 oh, i wasn't talking down on your research at all preist i was praising it and the fact that there are people like the ones on this forum who go the distance of what this post is doing that is run tests and experiment with this awsome game...finding out how it ticks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Lee Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 I think you should try the 4 Shermans vs 4 P IVs at 1500 meters and you would see the ratio move in favour of the P IVs due to its higher-velocity gun. Cheers, Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lt Lee: I think you should try the 4 Shermans vs 4 P IVs at 1500 meters and you would see the ratio move in favour of the P IVs due to its higher-velocity gun. Cheers, Lee<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Steve of BTS fame (Head Honcho) don't you know did just that. here's his posted results: "At 1500m I simply took Regular 5 M4A1 (75) and 5 PzIVh and let them face off. I had each target a unique tank. Results were... First Volley: 3 Shermans hit (2 brewed up) 0 PzIVs hit Second Volley (now with more guns on the Shermans): 1 Sherman hit (brewed up) 0 PzIVs hit Third Volley (5:1 this time) 1 Sherman hit (brewed up) 0 PzIVs hit This is a more or less realistic test of two platoons meeting each other in combat. Within 40 seconds all Shermans were dead, the PzIVs not even phased. So... how can one argue that the Germans don't have an advantage here? Steve" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FABIO Posted October 13, 2000 Author Share Posted October 13, 2000 I may just not have played enough, but I have yet to play one battle where a unit has a clear line of sight for 1500m, usually it's broken up by ridges. Anyone know a good, flat plains battle I could get this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Hey guys. I have to agree that in CM 1500m LOS is near impossible. But in WWII did this happen often or at all? 1500m is 1.5KM which is over a mile if my math is right. WOW!. A mile is a loooong distance. Hmmmm? The twenty more tests will be up on this post tomorrow. I will check in here some tonight though to break up the tests. ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Fabio try First Clash as Cambes. You should get into some longer ranged combat in that battle. Be warned that the enemy is a fair match for you in that battle though, whichever side you play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Interesting tests. The 750m looks like it leans to the Shermans' favor while the 1500m gives an edge to the Pz IV. I am wondering about what factors in the game are affecting this deviation in results. There have been discussions about the superiority of German optics and that they are not modelled in CM (for a variety of reasons, one being no one can quantify the qualitative difference). Knowing that they aren't modelled leaves me puzzled because I would take that as my first answer for why the PZ IVs did better at 1500m. Perhaps it is just the higher velocity and correspondingly flatter trajectory for the 75mmL/48. Or maybe the smaller size of the Pz IV comes into play at longer range. I would hope that the commander's cupola would play a role in the results by allowing the tanks to acquire targets more rapidly. Most shermans didn't have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Schmidt Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Interesting disussion. For a long time now, i avoid to use Panzer IVs. They are really too vulnerable. I think this should be changed. This couldn´t have been in reality, cause the main battel-tank of the germans was still the VI. Any comments?? Greetings from Germany Jochen Schmidt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jochen Schmidt: For a long time now, i avoid to use Panzer IVs. They are really too vulnerable. I think this should be changed. This couldn´t have been in reality, cause the main battel-tank of the germans was still the VI.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jochen, the main battle tank of the Allies was the Sherman and it was a piece of junk when it came to taking on German tanks. So that is not a particularly good argument. I really think that a gut feeling is not enough for such a change. If you read Tout's 'Tank!', you will see that the Panzer IV was really at best equal with the Allied tanks in Normandy. The situation would have been different in Russia, wit longer-ranged engagements, and also highly dependent on the skill of the commander, I would assume. If you understand about their vulnerability, you will treat them more careful and they will live longer. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 The Panzer IV rocks! I love this little tank. Heaps of ammo, good speed, good armor. Sure, it's not invulnerable, but for the points it's a great buy. About equivelant with the Sherman and better at longer ranges.. what more could you ask for? PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer: The Panzer IV rocks! I love this little tank. Heaps of ammo, good speed, good armor. Sure, it's not invulnerable, but for the points it's a great buy. About equivelant with the Sherman and better at longer ranges.. what more could you ask for? PeterNZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good to know I'm not the only soul who prefers the PzKpfw IV when playing the Germans & yes it has its moments & is the equal of the Sherman 75 & 76mm in everyway. My PBEM opponets go into fits of laughter when they see what my tanks are . LOL cept in the latest Operation Bastables & I are playing, he picked it, I ended up with some Panthers, with no way to trade them in for PzKpfw IV's ........... Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the feild". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jochen Schmidt: Interesting disussion. For a long time now, i avoid to use Panzer IVs. They are really too vulnerable. I think this should be changed. This couldn´t have been in reality, cause the main battel-tank of the germans was still the VI. Any comments?? Greetings from Germany <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Being the workhorse of an army doesn't mean the PzIV was not "vulnerable". Using the logic you just presented you would have to argue that the Sherman is to "vulnerable" because it was the workhorse of the Allies. The PzIV was begining to be out-classed by Allied vehicles in the North African campaigns so it is really not surprising to see it out-classed by later war Allied tanks. [This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 10-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout: The PzIV eas begining to be out-classed by Allied vehicles in the North African campaigns so it is really not surprising to see it out-classed by later war Allied tanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I believe 'outclassed' is an incorrect term, as the small numbers of PzKpfw IV F2's & G's deployed in Afrika & Tunisa were both considered superior to the Sherman 75 in firepower. If the comment was refering to the PzKpfw F1 7.5 cm Kurz then I agree. The only qualm with the PzKpfw IV is its armor, which is in the same boat as the Sherman's, in that both tanks could be killed by each others gun on the 1st hit, in a match up their is no diference between the PzKpfw IV H & Sherman 76mm except siloette height & turret traverse speed & who get's the 1st hit. I found it interesting to read that US tankers useing the 75mm in Normandy prefered to engage PzKpfw IVs at below 500yrds as they didn't trust the 75mm above that range to reliably defeat the PzKpfw IV, as all my prior reading had indicated the 75mm could deal with the PzKpfw IV at all standard ranges. The major difernce was production, their were alot more Shermans then PzKpfw IVs so the Germans couldn't afford to accept a 1 vs 1 exchange ratio. Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the feild". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945. [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 10-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The PzIV eas begining to be out-classed by Allied vehicles in the North African campaigns so it is really not surprising to see it out-classed by later war Allied tanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think this was really the case. The long 75mm gun was better than the US 75 through the end of the war. The 76mm armed shermans were about equal to the PZ IV though more reliable and faster. The BTS test above clearly demonstrates something in the PZ IV outclasses the sherman at 1500m. Why this reason isn't a factor at 750m too is an intriguing mystery at the moment. I used to be a big fan of the Pz IV until I got CM. What really makes them bad is watching jabos punch them full of holes long after their bombs are gone. Play the villers bocage operation and watch the pz IVs burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Last night I played Elsdorf for the first time, SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER I chose the Germans, when my reinforcements came the KT was moved into the village and the Tiger 1s were moved forward to engage the various Jumbos. Lots of ricochets of 88s off good american armor, lots of ricochets off good early war german armor. A Pershing appears on the right flank of the T1s, the KT is moved next to a house at the edge of the village and promptly bogs (immobile) but is luckily facing the Pershing. T1s ignore Pershing as they are still engaging the Jumbos in the distance (1 T1 takes a gun hit and is retired to the village). The KT engages the Pershing which is hull down. Both vehicles trade several shots with ricochets off heavy armor (KT is at edge of village, Pershing is behind low rise accross field). Three Tank Destoyers move up next to the M26, the M26 takes a dive, the KT engages te TDs. A few ricochets and then one after the other the KT picks them off. KT is still immobile but active. At the end of the game I find out the TDs were in fact Pershings... The T1s (3 of them) were not engaged by the M26s and have moved forward to dispatch the Jumbos and engage the remaining allied light armor picking them off one by one. I was impressed by how tough the German tanks were in this, my Pz 4s were both dispatched early in their deployment but I was not surprised. The T1s suffered 1 gun damage and at the end of the game 1 destroyed as I didn't have enough infantry left to protect them form the US antitank teams. As I have seen so often in this game, it comes down to luck.... where were the units at the time of engagement, who shot first, who shot best and so on. I was lucky, my KT took out 4 Pershings from a position it just happened to end up in. Had it not bogged where it was it could have ended up in psoition in the field where it could have been picked off. Tank losses often come down to luck, and how you use your vehicles. Try going back to a saved version of a turn and replay it until you actually win that turn by modifying your orders to your units. You will find that your orders will make the difference in whether you lose a vehicle or not. No tank is invulnerable so don't put in a position which would require that it be invulnerable to survive your orders. The middle of a field is no place for a tank if you can help it. Try to make sure that your flanks are covered by buildings, trees or other protecting vehicles or infantry units. Us the advantages your units posess and consider its limitations. A KT moves slowly and has a slow turret, put it where it can pick off targets at range where it is invulnerable to its targets. Support it with units to the flanks so it won't be hit by a peashooter that zips around. If you have a M4 with a 75mm, move fast and close on your target, move en masse with several shermans in a wedge, arrow or other configuration. Overwhelm your opponent with your numbers, the sheer number of shots you can lay onto a target and so on. German tanks, at least the later ones were remarkable machines but had many severre flaws underpowered unreliable slow turrets small numbers of them produced and so on. Allied tanks had many flaws but in general therre were always alot of them around and they had excellent support from the other combined arms. I have strong beliefs and opinions, some of which are wrong or flawed. You may disaggree but on the things I am right about, I can't make you know. You must learn them on your own. thanks for reading my diatribe... Karl Mead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 My apologies for even suggesting a German tank was not superior to an Allied one. Das Panzerkampfwagen IV war das beste! [This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 10-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 I bet if I play Elmsdorf again tonight, my losses on the German side could just as easily go the other way... As thisi game has shown me several times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Another good point on taking the Pz IVs versus pbem opponents is that they are very often mistaken for Tiger tanks, which I've read occurred with frequency in Normandy due to the two tanks similiar look from afar. -john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Okay here is last nights result. To recap there are 4 PnzIV vs. 4 M4 Sherman (basic) at 750m head on duel. It was a clear day with no cover whatsoever (is that one word?). The number are the number of kills inflicted on the enemy. The tanks are from June 1944 and the version of the Panzer is "G". Reg crews. Panzer/Sherman 3/4 3/4 2/4 4/3 4/2 3/4 1/4* 3/4 4/3 3/4 2/4 2/4 4/3 3/4 3/4 4/1* 3/4 3/4 2/4 4/3 So there we go. I will let you guys and gals derive what you want from the above statistics. The two "*" I attribute to luck and chance so I marked them. Interesting that both sides got a "lucky break". It was two late to count the richocets but it seemed more even, but the PNZIV "brewed up" almost as much as the Sherman! Again I did not count (i am a poor scientist) but it was damn close. Only one game lasted to the third turn; 7 never lasted past the first. The longer the battle went the better the Shermans tended to do, possibly due to the fact that the TacAI started to reverse and move around thus maybe throwing the Germans off more than the Americans (?). Anyways responses (?) Oh and Tiger those Dailmers are a bitch. I am playing a PBEM right now that pits me the Germans against my best friend playing Brits. The bad part, I am defending but as a surprise I am sending three pnzIV on a endaround covered by a STUGIII. THat is what led me to the tests in the first place (MiGO you better not be reading this or I just might take our challenge public!). Oh and he loves AC's. I am so screwed!!!!! ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest [This message has been edited by Priest (edited 10-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrapGame Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 I think that for what a PzIV costs, I'm usually better off with a Hetzer and some form of support weapon. The Hetzer is fairly survivable, and even though its ammo supply is limited, it usually lives long enough to shoot all its shells (unlike my PzIV's, which usually die shortly after being spotted). The combination of HE shells from the Hetzer and whatever support weapon(s) you choose with the remaining points (mortar, mg team(s), shreck, sharpshooter, etc.) usually provide more total firepower for a longer period than the PzIV does. Just a thought. ------------------ CrapGame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout: My apologies for even suggesting a German tank was not superior to an Allied one. Das Panzerkampfwagen IV war das beste! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now now don't be apologising for being yourself Cav, had you explained the areas the PzKpfw IV was inferior to the Sherman in your post we might have understood where you were comeing from ... Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the feild". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945. [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 10-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: Now now don't be apologising for being yourself Cav, had you explained the areas the PzKpfw IV was inferior to the Sherman in your post we might have understood where you were comeing from ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Using your "logic" from the Panther Turret Speed thread, I think you need to "now refute that they were not inferior to the Sherman and then will have something to discuss". Cav ------------------ Deutsch sollte nie verlieren. Kampf-Mission muß das widerspiegeln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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