PBeM ettiquette?

[Tiger]

?

[BFCElvis]

Number 1 with a star is:KEEP THE GAME MOVING!! By this I mean send the files in as timely manner as you are capable of. Once or twice a day is great. Once a week is not great. The best is if from time to time you can meet your victim on line and do file transfers through AIM or ICQ.

Number 2: Do not stop sending files without a damn good reason AND notifying your prey. It is terrible form to just disappear and even worse if you are getting beat and just don't feel like playing anymore. Which brings me to point number 3....

Number 3: If you are getting your butt kicked and don't feel like playing the scenario out surrender AND send the surrender file to the victor because he may want to survey the battlefield to learn what you had, who killed who ect...

Number 4: If you are getting crushed and the game is beyond help throw your opponent a bone and surrender so as to not waste any more of his time (or yours) beating a dead horse. ie..your global moral is at 13%, the only thing you have left is one tank and know your opponent has 3 tanks and a platoon or two left....It's over brother give up.

Number 5: Whenever possible taunt your opponent and insult his intellect. Disparage his parentage and tell him he is silly as much as you can.

Number 6: ALWAYS...I repeat..Always lie about the condition of your troops. If your doing great tell them how beat up your troops are. If you are suffering heavy loses say things like "Yeah, wait till you see what I have coming for you".

I am sure there are many others but that is a good start.

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"To conquer death you only have to die" JC

[Mark IV]

Filenames?

I like MeYou01. First, the "MeYou" helps to separate incoming turns from other games I might have going on. I periodically move turns from \PBEM into specific folders for each battle.

When You get the turn, plot or whatever and hit GO, all you then have to do is backspace once and type 2.

The return file is then named MeYou02. When I'm done, I backspace once and type 3. You get MeYou03. Doesn't matter if it's a movie file or a plotted turn, the next highest number is always right.

Ijit proof. It would be nice if future versions asked for the folder you'd like to store turns in, and maybe presented a sequential filename, BTW.

[BFCElvis]

I was gonna mention that some people do that but it really doesn't fall under "ettiquette". Personaly no matter what the file is called when it is sent to me I change it before downloading to the person I am playings name with no designation for turn number. I have no use for keeping old turn files. The few times I have wanted to save a file I just save the newly generated file as something diferent and move on.If I were to ever do a full AAR I guess I would want to save them...other than that they clutter up my folders.

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"To conquer death you only have to die" JC

[Fionn]

Oh, NEVER do anything gamey unless your opponent is OK with gamey tactics.

NOTHING destroys the chance of a rematch more quickly than a gamey tactic.

[PD]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Oh, NEVER do anything gamey unless your opponent is OK with gamey tactics.

NOTHING destroys the chance of a rematch more quickly than a gamey tactic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But what do you classify as gamey tactic? I thought the idea of trying to kill/shatter your opponent as quick as possible was the aim?

I can't think of a gamey tactic except to screw around buying lots of 210mm and plastering your opponent so your one squad can survive in the corner? This what you mean?

[TexasToast]

I'm also interested in what would be considered gamey. So Fionn, what would be your top ten list of gamey tactics to avoid in a gentlemanly matchup (if there are ten)?

Thanks

[sbg2112]

I've only PBEM'ed one person -- hey, I'm faithful -- but we've played 8 or so times and one rule has just sorta emerged that I think is very important.....

If you've just watched the movie and are sending it to your opponent, don't spoil the movie!!! Taunts and all that are mandatory, but don't let your trash-talking ruin the movie for them. After all, you may just inadvertently give away something (i.e., "loose lips sink ships" or however that saying goes).

Oh, and another thing that's at least my policy (but may not be everybody's) is to not turn the e-mail into a PR / psych-ops kinda thing. Some people may like to use the trash-talking as a chance to spread misinformation and so forth, but not me.

(Good thread. Somebody oughtta make sure the useful bits find a home on CMHQ.)

[GI Tom]

Perfect timing for me on this thread. I too am interested. I posed this very same question to Berli while playing PBEM last night. Being new to this board and to CM PBEM, I don't want to make any PBEM fauxpaus.

To me, I have played wargames long enough to know what is considered "universally" gamey. (Using crews as recon's, etc, etc.) And one thing I've learned is that what is gamey to one is not to another. But I'm interested on seeing what fellow CM'ers think is considered PBEM etiquette proper or if there is even such a thing.

Here's a question that bothers me, lets say I send someone a setup, and the choice doesn't specify unit types (Waffen SS, Army Heer, Mountain troops). Is it bad form to mix and match some of those?? I have done this in my first game, and am now worried it's not proper. That maybe I should have used all of one kind.

Honestly, I was choosing forces and didn't even think about it until after the game started.

So if some of you more CM experienced PBEM'ers would sound off on this, it would be great.

GI Tom

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To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of wierd sandwich.

[Vanir]

I too would be curious to here from some CM PBEM veterans on this. One thing that is considered gamey in almost every wargame I've ever played is using cheap, expendable units for recon that historicly would never have been used in that roll. By this I mean trucks, tank crews, gun crews, or any non-combat type unit.

[rwwald]

As new to PBEM I really would like to know the definition of "Gamey"

Regards Gramps

[This message has been edited by rwwald (edited 08-05-2000).]

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rwwald:

As new to PBEM I really would like to know the definition of "Gamey"

Regards Gramps

[This message has been edited by rwwald (edited 08-05-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All wargames are abstractions of real combat. Even the most realistic like CM are to an extent. "Gamey" is generaly defined as taking advantage of an unrealistic aspect of the game to gain an advantage over your opponent. One of the biggest holes in the realism of wargames (including CM) is that you always are in contact with all your units. See the examples I gave above. This is why using bailed tank crews as recon is considered gamey (it would have been impossible in real life as bailed WW2 tank crews didn't have radios and were too shook up to do anything but run away anyways).

Some people also consider purchasing ahistorical force compositions as gamey as well (buying 10 Jumbos for example). This varies from person to person tho. Others see no problem with it at all, so the trick is to communicate with you opponent before the game starts so no one ends up feeling cheated later on.

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 08-05-2000).]

[Fionn]

Well, here's a list of things which I don't particularly like to see.

1. People mixing and matching forces. E.g. Buying US Glider troops but British 17 pounder-armed tanks. If you choose one nation then I think you should stick to it. Same goes for the Germans. If one infantry unit is FJ then all should be FJ IMO (unless you've agreed to a situation where units from one division are reinforced by units from another branch of the army).

2. Jeep rushes... Rushing AT guns with a jeep loaded with a team of infantry. When the jeep gets KO'ed the infantry kill the AT gun crew. VERY gamey and very annoying.

3. Jeep rush vs tanks.. Load the jeep with a bazooka team and rush the enemy tank. VERY gamey and annoying.

4. Purchasing 1 platoon of infantry and 2 14 inch FOs and simply artying your opponent to pieces.

Note: It is completely OK to purchase lots of artillery, e.g. I often have 6 or more FOs but these would be in the 81 to 150mm range and no more. This is a much more believable force mix than 1 platoon + 2 battleships .

5. Extreme map-edge hugging. In a search for the flanks a lot of action will, obviously, occur near the flanks. This is reasonable and fair. However, one will sometimes see an opponent whose only tactic is to repeatedly push most of his force along your flanks using the map edge as cover. Simply don't play these guys again.

6. Most people settle on a favourite unit type and play with them. I generally pick Motorised SS Panzergrenadiers or FJs. There's nothing gamey in picking a powerful unit. When it does become gamey is if you begin picking unrealistic force mixes.

7. NOTHING is gamey if you and your opponent agree to allow it. So, if you don't agree to limit purchases of Pershings and King Tigers then you should feel free to buy as many as you can afford.

However, it IS gamey to enter a game in which one player has indicated they'll limit themselves to Pz IVs or Panthers and buy Pershings. I feel that if the German is limited to Pz IVs then the Allied player should be limited to a 75mm Sherman. If the German player is using a Panther then the Allied player can access 17 pounders or 76mm armed Shermans. If the German player is using a Tiger then the Allied player can access 90mm armed TDs ( but not the Pershing).

If the German player is using the King Tiger then the Allied player gets to use Pershings..

I find this simple scale allows pretty fair games.

8. Hacking game files.. BAD IDEA ! If it is spotted your opponent will never play you again ( happened to me once already.. fortunately the guy made a pretty obvious hack which I'd seen before).

9. Bailed crew recon. Using crews to recon ahead of your forces when nearby infanty could do the job is gamey. However, if your force gets whittled down enough that nearby infantry can't do the job then I believe it is OK to have tank crew fill the gaps in the line.

10. Just use your common sense. If it sounds like it might be unrealistic to you then it probably is.

[Mark IV]

One of the thorniest "gamey" issues is edge-hugging: advancing up one edge of the map, which reduces your exposure to enemy fire by having one of your flanks to an unrealistic void.

On many smaller maps the only alternative is what amounts to a frontal assault.

How far from the map edge is gamey? Therein lies the rub... seems to have a lot to do with who has the upper hand. Playing the same folks repeatedly tells a lot. There are those who always do so, even on large maps. And there are those who cry "foul" to any advance not made squarely into their 88s.

"Search" for voluminous discussion.

[Vanir]

Hacking game files? I didn't even know you could do this. How can you tell if someone has hacked a game file?

[Tiger]

Lots of good advice/knowledge on ettiquette, although...

"If the German player is using the King Tiger then the Allied player gets to use Pershings.."

I quote form a book on the subject:

"Production of twenty prototypess [of the T-26, which became the M-26 Pershing] had begun in November 1944 and Ordanace Department recommended that these should be shipped immediately to Europe for battle testing. Again prejudice against heavy tanks surfaced in Army Ground Forces, who asked that they first go to the Armored Forcefor testing of their effectiveness. This would have wasted another month but luckily the German attack in the Ardennes... spotlighted the inadequacies of the M-4 [sherman]... the US General Staff intervened on the 22nd [of December 1944] to order the imediate despatch to Europe of all available T-26 tanks. The first 20 arrived in the European Theater of Operations (ETO) in January of 1945 and were issued to combat units in February [1945]. Tank crews were favourably impressed with a tank which was almost a match for the Tiger in firepower and protection but mutch more mobile and reliable, and full production was ordered."

Armoured Firepower: the Development of Tank Armament 1939-45 by Peter Gudgen

Sutton Publishing Ltd ISBN 0 7509 1387 8

A very good book on the subject and one which I highly recommend.

In light of the above paragraph, M-26 Pershings should be very rare in any CM game.

King Tigers I would see as rare. Tigers would not be so rare as uncommon. Panthers and M-4s would be common.

-Tiger

[Fionn]

Tiger,

Aye, I know the figures and ratios.

E.g. 20 Pershings, 100 or so Sherman Jumbo 76s, 480+ King Tigers, over 1000 Tigers etc.

However, at a stage when a German player can put 8 KTs on the field all historicity goes out the window.

IF you agree to "historical rarity" before beginning your PBEM then all well and good BUT if you just agree to try and buy relatively equivalent tanks then my rules of thumb are a good guideline to use. They focus PURELY on which tanks perform roughly equally and don't take rarity into account at all.

Ps. You spelt Gudgin wrong but I'll forgive you since it is VERY refreshing to find someone who actually quotes references when arguing on this forum . I have that particular book also. Very nice and easy reading isn't it? A bit basic but a great introduction to the subject matter wouldn't you agree?

[tailz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

5. Extreme map-edge hugging. In a search for the flanks a lot of action will, obviously, occur near the flanks. This is reasonable and fair. However, one will sometimes see an opponent whose only tactic is to repeatedly push most of his force along your flanks using the map edge as cover. Simply don't play these guys again.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he's hugging it that tightly, he's left himself wide open somewhere else. I don't think CM really leaves itself open to abuse of the 'edge creeper' tactic. IF the terrain is advantageous along the edge, then the attacker is obligated to use it. (and the defender should be looking at the map and recognising an attacker's route of advance..."hmmm, he'll be under full cover 'til he's only a hundred meters from the town if he comes along this route... or fully exposed for a kilometer if he advances on this side.")

I don't think 'creepers' get an advantage in CM.

[Jarmo]

I agree with most points here, but since I'm an asshole I feel

I must speak out in favor of some gameyness.

1. Keeping your feeble forces hidden and purchasing a load of arty.

Quite simply, it's not possible to go all arty thanks to force limitations.

Having as much arty as possible is a valid strategy,

but not smart IMHO.

2. Purchasing ubertanks.

The problem is, they're too cheap! If you'd get 4 or 5 sherman

76's for the price of kingtiger, there'd be no problem.

But having a Jumbo 76 for 1.5 times the price of "normal" 76

is just too cheap.

3. Using historically rare units.

The game holds absolutely no info of unit rarity. Not everyone

is a history professor.

4. Using crews.

While I wouldn't send crews on a scouting mission, I reserve

myself a right to declare Alamo and have them added to my defense.

5. Mixing force types.

It doesn't really affect gameplay, I'd have no problem adding

a few Heer panzers to back up my gerbil-jaeger infantry.

6. Load the jeep with a bazooka team and rush the enemy tank.

Hey! That's a cool idea!

But really, if the tank has adequate infantry support, this shouldn't

be a problem.

As a final note, I'm really not gamey as I sound.

At least no-one has complained.

Although I think Dan gulped twice when I told I have 35 puppchens

for AT defense. (I lied)

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Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[Tanaka]

Hi... just a few coments

"However, at a stage when a German player can put 8 KTs on the field all historicity goes out the window."

All my PBM battles are meeting engagements and Combined arms ( Specialy ladder games )... So no problem there.

"Extreme map-edge hugging. In a search for the flanks a lot of action will, obviously, occur near the flanks. This is reasonable and fair. However, one will sometimes see an opponent whose only tactic is to repeatedly push most of his force along your flanks using the map edge as cover. Simply don't play these guys again."

All war games have the map-edge problem,(CM beeing 3D reduces this efect), I can live with it, if he is on the map-edge ... If you know that already... knowing the enemy is a step in the right direction

"Just use your common sense. If it sounds like it might be unrealistic to you then it probably is."

very, very good rule !

[GI Tom]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Well, here's a list of things which I don't particularly like to see.

1. People mixing and matching forces. E.g. Buying US Glider troops but British 17 pounder-armed tanks. If you choose one nation then I think you should stick to it. Same goes for the Germans. If one infantry unit is FJ then all should be FJ IMO (unless you've agreed to a situation where units from one division are reinforced by units from another branch of the army).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See..now look, I've gone and screwed up my very first PBEM game. In the second one, I made sure to keep them the same. Sorry Berli.

I was so excited to get a PBEM, that I was more concerned in making the points work out than anything. But, I don't think I would be upset to play like this on a regular basis. I see the points as keeping people in line. So if both sides have 1250 points, both sides can get a pretty even mix since it limits in combined arms the amounts you can have. Although not historically accurate, you should be able to fight an even fight at least.

I guess the big thing is to specify before you play. I.E. "Keep within one unit please such as all US or all Waffen SS. In my case, I just sent off the file and yelled "woohoo" when I got it back and started choosing my points.

Thanks everyone for sounding off on this.

GI Tom

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To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of wierd sandwich.

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

2. Purchasing ubertanks.

The problem is, they're too cheap! If you'd get 4 or 5 sherman

76's for the price of kingtiger, there'd be no problem.

But having a Jumbo 76 for 1.5 times the price of "normal" 76

is just too cheap.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I'd like to see the costs for the supertanks raised. Probably for some of the best infantry a little as well (FJ). Good post tho. I agree with everything you said. Mix-matching nationalities doesn't bother me as it has no impact on the play of the game. Also, pretending the map edge isn't there is a noble but futile effort IMO, especially on smaller maps. It's better to just acknowlege it and deal with it.

[Jarhead]

On my very 1st PBEM, I encountered the map edge flank movement by my opponent. I dont really mind it as yet. I was very lucky to have placed most of my Armor (3 Light tanks, 1 med tank, 2-50 cal half tracks, and a greyhound all in line facing the crest of the hill. I had them in position out of sight. on turn 2, 6 German half tracks w/troops came over the crest directly in front of my staging area, on the extream left edge. I took out 5 tracks, and the last one backed down the opposite side of the hill (all in that one turn). I lost nothing. But had I not been staging in that area...It could have been bad news for me. It was all luck, im not boasting in anyway. Ill save that for later.

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Semper Fi.

[Formerly Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

However, if your force gets whittled down enough that nearby infantry can't do the job then I believe it is OK to have tank crew fill the gaps in the line.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotta disagree with ya on that one, big guy. A couple of pistol packers who are probably already deaf, numb, thirsty and more than a little singed around the edges have no place in my battle line. They go for the nearest cover and into hide mode until they can crawl away.

If your force is whittled down to where the infantry can't do the job then it's time to submit a cease fire request.

Against the A/I I'll do anything (hell, one time I used a group of prisoners to march ahead of my tanks and sweep for mines ), but I truly hate being rushed by stray crews and I wouldn't do it to somebody else.

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It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE.

[GilaMonster]

This is a very interesting topic. Having just started to do PBEM I do not wish to get "blacklisted" for poor etiquette. I'm mostly concerned about the force selection aspect of Quick Battles since I haven't the foggiest what is historical or not. I've been just spending the points any way the computer will allow me to.

I also don't see the problem with brave, highly motivated jeep and AT teams working together to get close enough to a tank to nail it. I would suspect if the troops are less than veterans it probably wouldn't work. I haven't tried it yet. It seems to me that foolhardy maneuvers don't pay off in CM too well. I'm just an old man having fun so watch out for highly mobile panzershrecks if you play me. I like the concept.

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Gilamonster