Speaking of Polygon Counts in Game systems

[aka_tom_w]

Well here is it 11 Times faster than a FAST MAC

Sony PS2 "can crank up to 66 million polygons per second. This represents an astonishing 11 times more than what a Mac equipped with a current high-end consumer video card could expect to do."

This things looks like it will really be able to make all that new 3D Eye candy Dance in ways we have not ever seen before. Now if I could just find one for sale somewhere?

-tom w

from:

http://www.maccentral.com/news/9909/20.sony.shtml

In a series of press releases issued the company, Sony announced the specifications for their next generation home game console, the PlayStation2. The specs are impressive for a video game console: the centerpiece is a 295 MHz 128-bit processor called Emotion Engine. A 147 MHz dedicated graphics processor called the Graphics Synthesizer assists the Emotion Engine. It will also come equipped with 32 MB of RAM, 4 MB of VRAM, and 2 MB of RAM dedicated to audio. The Emotion Engine's capabilities were shown off at the Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) earlier this year. At the show, it exhibited the ability to produce lifelike and realistic motion and physical effects unparalleled by anything produced for a video game console to date. The specs on the system, released earlier this year, suggest that the Emotion Engine can crank up to 66 million polygons per second. This represents an astonishing 11 times more than what a Mac equipped with a current high-end consumer video card could expect to do.

Not only will the PlayStation2 feature support for audio CD's, but it will play DVD videos as well. The PlayStation will also feature complete backward compatibility for games designed to run on the first-generation PlayStation enabling PlayStation2 owners to keep their existing libraries of games. The entire unit is clad in a color that Sony refers to as "space black," with bluish accents. The console can be laid horizontally like a traditional piece of a/v equipment or stood up vertically like a tower computer. The clamshell design of the original PlayStation has been replaced with a CD tray; Sony executives indicate this design change was necessary to support the high-speed 24x CD-ROM and 4x DVD speeds of the PlayStation2's drive mechanism.

Interfaces on the new box will be familiar to many Mac users. The PlayStation2 comes equipped with proprietary game controller and memory card interfaces, as well as an A/V cable interface and an optical digital link, just like a high-end DVD player. Additionally, the PlayStation2 comes with a Universal Serial Bus interface and an IEEE 1394 I/O port, which Sony refers to as I.Link. This is the same interface that Apple has incorporated on its Power Mac G3 and G4 product lines as FireWire.

In a conference call with journalists, Sony executives were cagey about what exactly the company planned to do with the USB and I.Link interfaces, but various options -- including digital cameras, storage devices, and other peripherals -- were casually mentioned in passing. Sony's decision to use the IEEE 1394 standard puts a powerful ally in Apple's court, as the computer industry tries to figure out what to do about FireWire.

The PlayStation2 is also equipped with a Type 3 PC cardbus interface. In a separate press release, Sony outlined their plans to make PlayStation2 a centerpiece of e-commerce technology. The company will produce a network interface card by 2001 to connect to the PlayStation2's cardbus slot. This will enable

users of the PlayStation2 to download complete games and other software via broadband media such as cable modem networks, storing them on local hard disk drives connected to the PlayStation2, perhaps through USB or I.Link interfaces. Sony appears poised to offer PlayStation2 users not just the ability to download games to their consoles, but other entertainment media as well, including movies and music.

More than 200 companies have pledged support for the new PlayStation2, including 89 game publishers in Japan and 46 in North America. More than two dozen European publishers have also signed letters of intent to develop for the new game console. Another 45 companies plan to support PlayStation2 with the development of tools and middleware to assist game developers.

Sony indicates that the PlayStation2 will make its public debut in Tokyo on March 4 next year. This is a few months later than originally anticipated by Sony, which hoped to have the PlayStation2 on the market by the end of the year. The company still plans a North American and European introduction for the new game console by autumn of next year, however.

The price for Japanese consumers has been set at 39,800 Yen- about US$373. The original PlayStation debuted in Japan at this same price. Will Sony be able to get the PlayStation2 down to $299 -- the same price of the original PlayStation in the US? Sony executives remain closed-mouthed about their North American release plans. Executives queried at the teleconference suggested that more details would be forthcoming about the PlayStation2's North American and European releases at next year's E3 Expo in Los Angeles, California scheduled for May 11-13.

Ok its old news but it does sound FAST!

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 11-05-2000).]

[Guest Lord General MB]

Soldier!

BUT.... PS2's.....suck.

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------------------

Cheers,

Lord General Mr. Bill,

1st Army

[aka_tom_w]

oh?

Sorry to get you so worked up?

just a technical comparision of how fast the darn thing is

no big deal

-tom w

[Noba]

But if they add all the doo-dads to it...

they can call it a PC

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Soldier!

BUT.... PS2's.....suck.

Suck. SUCK. SUCK!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAHAHA!!

Ahem. I would love to see a World War II type game on the PS2, whether it be action or strategy.

Just think, you could have slightly better PS graphics but with *hundreds* of soldiers!!

How about an eastern front tank sim with nice playability!! Yes please!!

The only problem might be this 299Mhz chip, I mean will the graphics be pretty but the games unintelligent? My Mac runs at 400Mhz, so does that mean that the AI is better than that of the PS2?

Anyway, the new Playstation will be superior to the Dreamcast in every way. I bought a Dreamcast, and regretted it. When I bought a new Mac, not only were the games better, but you can do other stuff on it too.

[Chupacabra]

Comparing PCs and consoles is apples and oranges. They're designed to play different types of games. Consoles are great at some kinds of games and suck for others, PCs are the same way. When was the last time you saw a really deep wargame on a console? When was the last time you saw a really kickass fighter on a PC (ports don't count, at that point it's just merchandising)? Comparisons like "11 times faster than a fast Mac" are useless. It's a bit like saying that my fridge is 11 times faster than my dishrack. They're designed to perform differently, so why compare them? Polygon counts are fine, but realize that PC monitors have a much higher resolution than most peoples' TVs. Until HDTVs come down in price, you're going to be getting 66 million polygons of blurry eyestrain at 90 fps.

The processor speed has nothing to do with AI competence. For example, System Shock 2 will run (slowly) on a P133. Daikatana, on the other hand, is a system hog. Try to load that thing on a P133 and watch while your CPU melts. Is the Daikatana AI better than the SS2 AI? Hell no.

And LGMB - please edit that down some, I think everyone got your point in the first five lines of suck.

------------------

Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 11-05-2000).]

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Polygon counts are fine, but realize that PC monitors have a much higher resolution than most peoples' TVs. Until HDTVs come down in price, you're going to be getting 66 million polygons of blurry eyestrain at 90 fps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good point.

By the looks of it, there is a new Ridge Racer game on the PS2, it looks so good, such an advance over the original game, you can tell this because the new Ridge Racer uses the same tracks.

Maybe the next generation of consoles will have near photo-realistic games. But will TV technology have to improve as well? I know that we are moving to widescreen, but in most regions of the world the effective resolution is exactly the same.

Aliens vs Predator on the Jaguar was close in places, but then that was just boxy corridors and good textures.

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

The processor speed has nothing to do with AI competence. For example, System Shock 2 will run (slowly) on a P133. Daikatana, on the other hand, is a system hog. Try to load that thing on a P133 and watch while your CPU melts. Is the Daikatana AI better than the SS2 AI? Hell no.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Comparing processor speeds for different processor families is also comparing apples to oranges. Different processors have different instruction sets, and compiled code for different processors may not optimize the same way. An 800MHz chip may execute 100 operations twice as fast as a 400MHz chip, but if the 400MHz chip only requires 25 instructions to accomplish the same task, the 400 will be done first.

Processor speed is sort of like RPMs - higher RPMs = higher speed, all other things being equal. But if your high RPMs are coupled with a low gear, it'll still take you a while to get from point A to point B.

------------------

Leland J. Tankersley

[Mr. Clark]

Lord General... I uh... hate to tell you how wrong you are!

Good points you brought up though! Uh, yeah...

Anyhoo, I waited in a 7 hour line in a spur of the moment type thing, and ended up w/ a PS2. All I can say is that this thing hums like no PC I have ever seen... and that's only the 1st generation launch games.

I can certainly imagine CM running on a PS2 with all 12 men represented per squad.

(EDIT: a title in the works... KESSEN 2... hopes to achieve over 500 "men" on the screen at one time, in massive shogun battles)

At first programmers complained about the 4 mb vram of the PS2, until they found out it can pass through over 3 gb per second.

Also... if you check out the official "floating point" specs, it's incredible!

The processor, at 300 mhz, is incredibly fast. As stated, it can't be compared to a PC processor... plus, if I remember right, there are 1 or 2 co-processors.

http://www.scea.com/news/press_example.asp?ps2=ps2&ReleaseID=9

Yeah, it sucks all right... sucks all my time away while I'm playing it.

I'm 99% sure you can hook it up to a monitor too (just like a DVD player) so the resolution is also an invalid complaint.

I realize most people are pro PC anti-console... but no one can honestly say the PS2 isn't sweet.

Ok, must go play...

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 11-05-2000).]

[Guest MantaRay]

I think it is great that the consoles are getting better. I am one who came from the Atari 2600, Coleco, and Genesis age. That is where I learned about how great gaming was.

After I bought my first PC to play a little known title called, "Panzer General," I must admit that I have looked down on the original PS that we got one of the wifes brothers for his Birthday last year. Except for playing Marvel Vs Capcom, I wasnt impressed.

But from what I have seen of PS2, I can be almost certain I will be buying one after the holiday season for our home.

Hey, PC's are still better IMO, but you cannot think that this eventually wont help the PC game industry.

Ray

[RMC]

The latest CGW has a quickie comparison of the the PS2 to state of the art PCs. Apparently the 66 million polygons is a theoretical maximum and the sustained rate is around 22 million. A top of the line PC can do 25 million per second. The real difference seemed to be in the textured pixels (texels) PCs can do these much better than a PS2 and the max resolution for a PS2 is 640x480. I left the mag at home, I'll post the details later.

[Guest Madmatt]

Lord General MB,

While I could do it for you I would appreciate if you go back and edit your post to say only ONE line of SUCKS.

We get the point and don't need the waste of space.

Thank you.

Madmatt

[Sgt. Steiner]

RMC is right. Who wants to play in 640x480 when you can have 1600x1200 on a PC? And the PS2, like all consoles, isn't upgradeable. Two years from now it will be exactly the same, and PC's will be up to what, probably Pentium V and 2GHZ?

And you'll never see Combat Mission on a PS2, rest assured of that..

------------------

"Follow me, and I'll show you where the iron crosses grow"

[Smeltz]

I'd like to add a little into the fray. First off on processors. Anyone notice how mac CPU's are topped at about 500Mhz. Well trust me they are faster then a PIII 1Ghhz chip. The language is different and so is the data pipe. I used to run a 90Mhz Mac against my buddies 90 Intel chip. Night and day! We compared Doom and the Mac won hands down. It's because of the language people. I don't want to get into the Mac VS. Wintell system debate (I run a wintell system now because basically Bill Gates runs the market on games and Steve Jobs still hasn't figured it out!) The thing with a console system is that the chip set is dedicated to running video games. It doesn't have to be as versatile as the box your looking at now. Basically a console is one kick butt video card with a cd drive attached. I think that consoles are a good game medium for some types of games, but I also agree that in two years the computer will be mopping up the consoles on pure power. Remember that the shelf life of a console system is about five years, a computer we get new stuff every six months to a year. So I guess it boils down to not the power of the systems or comparing polygon rates or Mhz but how much money your willing to spend. $300 on a console every five years or $300 on a new video card every year and an all around upgrade or completely new system about every 3-5 years. Don't bust my balls here the numbers are average, some wait longer, some buy new every year.

------------------

"Free your mind!"

[Chupacabra]

You all have to remember that console games are (hopefully) optimized for their system. Ever tried playing a straight console-to-PC port? They usually run terribly, even with the PC's beefier specs, because they're not optimized for the PC.

PC developers have to deal with a bewildering array of hardware compatability issues, console developers don't. Which means that Timesplitters is gonna run the same on every PS2 in the world.

Dealing with a console is typically easier than dealing with a PC. No rinstalling Win9x every few months, no clearing up incompatible hardware, no reseating graphics cards. And consoles are cheaper by quite a bit than buying a cutting-edge gaming PC.

I don't own a console. I never have. I probably never will. But I do think that the console vs. PC debate is very silly. Both do different things, and do them well.

------------------

Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC:

The latest CGW has a quickie comparison of the the PS2 to state of the art PCs. Apparently the 66 million polygons is a theoretical maximum and the sustained rate is around 22 million. A top of the line PC can do 25 million per second. The real difference seemed to be in the textured pixels (texels) PCs can do these much better than a PS2 and the max resolution for a PS2 is 640x480. I left the mag at home, I'll post the details later.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's interesting

do you have a web page link

that mag must have a web site with that

comparision posted somewhere

I would really like to read it

thanks

-tom w

[Mr. Clark]

RMC... it's funny that Computer Gaming World, a magazine that makes it's living on PC games, would find (sketchy) statistics to "prove" a PC better than a PS2. Wait, no it's not...

However, if you look at the link I posted in my first post, you'll see that the resolution is variable: 256X224 to 1280 X 1024

Also, you'll see that the 66 million is a bottleneck on the processor side, and the graphics synthesizer is actually capable of 75 million. Thus, 66 million isn't "theoretical" at all.

As I already stated... Kessen 2 hopes to have 500 polygon characters on screen at one time.

As for the upgrades... in next year or so there will be a 50 gig HD and a cable modem network for the PS2.

I'm not trying to flame, just stating facts. I happen to be one of the people who would rather buy a sweet game machine for $300 that will be good for the next 5 years, than upgrade my pc every 2.9 seconds. Also, as someone stated, the compatibility issue (games are naturally specifically designed to run on PS2) is a huge bonus.

I play war/strategy games on my PC. Anything else... I prefer a console.

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 11-06-2000).]

[RMC]

Ok, since this wasn't on the CGW site I had to wait til I got home to post it.

It isn't exactly a straight up comparison since is comparing the PS2 to Pentium IV systems at 1.4 GHz. It certainly gives the impression that the PS2 architecture is more efficient than that of the PC given such disparate CPU clock speeds and memory amounts.

Anyway:

Choice bits from the brief article accompanying the chart:

"The launch of the PS2 is the beginning of the end of the PC as we know it." - Phil Harrison, Sony

"There are some sticking points with the graphics that are just really, really unfortunate. We could do a cut-down version [of our next game] that will run on the Playstation 2, but it won't have the incredible next-generation graphics that we're going to see on the next generation of PC chips." - John Carmack, iD Software.

[Mr. Clark]

Heh Heh... Carmack's such a dork.

He's a big dreamcast supporter. (see QIII on Dreamcast)

Unreal Tournament had to flatten the character models for translation to the Dreamcast version. For translation to PS2, they actually up'ed the polycount in the character animation.

Here are some more words on the PS2's supposed limitations:

"In other words, the bus is so zippy at streaming graphics data into the Graphics Synthesizer's VRAM that it's almost like the GS is jacked directly into the main memory. And some developers agree. "We certainly thrash textures in and out of VRAM more often than we would like," LucasArts' Corry says, "but keep in mind there are some pretty big 'pipes' connecting the major components of the PS2 together. That data bandwidth translates into fast texture loads into VRAM, so we're not really complaining."

Volition's Hague adds, "That huge pipe is key. We're uploading an obscene amount of textures per frame in Summoner. We're not holding back. You're going to see a huge variety of texturing within a single Summoner level." - EGM website

The Sony quote is kinda silly too, with PC's breaking new barriers every day, no technology is going to stay ahead for long.

I'm rather impressed with the way the PS2 stacks up to the 1.4 ghz chips! Especially since I'm not sure some of those numbers are accurate. The PS2's specs came out higher in the release version than they were in the pre-release listings. http://www.scea.com/news/press_example.asp?ps2=ps2&ReleaseID=9

There is a very Bizarre WWII game in dev for the PS2... I'll try to find a link to it tommorrow. Right now, I'm off to work...

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Clark:

Heh Heh... Carmack's such a dork.

He's a big dreamcast supporter. (see QIII on Dreamcast)

Unreal Tournament had to flatten the character models for translation to the Dreamcast version. For translation to PS2, they actually up'ed the polycount in the character animation.

Here are some more words on the PS2's supposed limitations:

"In other words, the bus is so zippy at streaming graphics data into the Graphics Synthesizer's VRAM that it's almost like the GS is jacked directly into the main memory. And some developers agree. "We certainly thrash textures in and out of VRAM more often than we would like," LucasArts' Corry says, "but keep in mind there are some pretty big 'pipes' connecting the major components of the PS2 together. That data bandwidth translates into fast texture loads into VRAM, so we're not really complaining."

Volition's Hague adds, "That huge pipe is key. We're uploading an obscene amount of textures per frame in Summoner. We're not holding back. You're going to see a huge variety of texturing within a single Summoner level." - EGM website

The Sony quote is kinda silly too, with PC's breaking new barriers every day, no technology is going to stay ahead for long.

I'm rather impressed with the way the PS2 stacks up to the 1.4 ghz chips! Especially since I'm not sure some of those numbers are accurate. The PS2's specs came out higher in the release version than they were in the pre-release listings. http://www.scea.com/news/press_example.asp?ps2=ps2&ReleaseID=9

There is a very Bizarre WWII game in dev for the PS2... I'll try to find a link to it tommorrow. Right now, I'm off to work...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Mr Clark,

I hope you will post that WWII title for PS2, looking forward to it. Is there a web linnk or any thing else?

Thanks

-tom w

[karch]

A very interesting point of the above comparison.... Only 4Meg of VRAM on the PS2? The box may be able to handle gobs of polygons, but you seem to really be limited to the size and depth of the graphics you use. If you wanted to have really high res tank, building and environment textures, you might be out of luck on a PS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if any part of an object is on screen, doesn't the whole texture map need to be loaded in vram to be rendered onto a polygon? It might be blazing fast, but it doesn't look like CM is the type of game to port over. I would rather have 32Meg of VRAM textures on a slower rendered animation than smooth as silk, but only 8 bit color lower rez textures.

Scott Karch

[John Hough]

As said earlier, it's apples and oranges.

1) Processors. The next generation of consoles is a lot better than previous ones, and given optimizations can maybe give PCs a run for their money. Still, processor intensive tasks, like ai, won't be as good on consoles.

2) Memory. Consoles take a big hit here, they just can't compete, in either ordinary ram or video ram. Video ram, though, isn't as big a deal, because of the enforced lower resolution of the tv set. Still, conoles will suffer for memory-intensive tasks.

3) Graphics. The next generation console is the clear winner, partly _because_ of the enforced low resolution of the television. Who complains about low television resolution? Basically no one, because of the typical television veiwing distance, which is also the typical console veiwing distance. So those 66 megapolygons/sec only need to cover a fourth, or less, of the area the PC needs to cover. And the necessary textures take less memory as well.

4) Programming. Consoles, historically, are a bear to program for. The X-box may change this, but the PS2 certainly won't. Industry insiders I've talked to absolutely dread having to program for the PS2, and conventional estimates are that teams will need twice as many programmers for the PS2 as they did for the PSX, which was harder to program for than PCs in the first place. Which makes it, perhaps, something of a bad idea for small developers to get involved with the PS2.

5) Control systems. This is the most important issue, and the one that gets the least press. But the keyboard/mouse is a profoundly different control device than the gamepad. Even one with analog buttons and 2 analog sticks in addition to the digital pad.

All of these add up to very different sorts of games that the systems are good for. The console is a lot better for certain sorts of action games, and the PC is a lot better for strategy games, which tend to need mouse/keyboard, and first person shooters, which need mouselook and the reduction in tunnel vision you get by having the screen as close to you as possible.

-John

[vimes]

I read a review of UT for PS2, comparing it to the PC version. It appears they drooped the poly count for the characters because of the frame rate hit that a large group of bots caused, and the basic visual quality was rather lacking.

So far I’m not impressed by the PS2, from the pics I have seen my faithful old PC is not that much out eyecandyed.

[Mr. Clark]

They dropped the character poly-count for the Dreamcast, but upped it for the PS2 (for UT).

See the latest issue of EGM for details.

Here is the link tto the WWII game: http://ps2.ign.com/previews/14417.html

I also posted it in another thread, which I now cannot find...

The game itself is biiiiizaaaarre (although kinda fun sounding), however, take a look at the screenshots and tell me the PS2 can't do textures and graphics... They are incredible! And it's not even considered one of the "prettier" titles for the system.

Also, have a look at this FPS game: http://ps2.ign.com/previews/15003.html

....and finally we have Metal Gear Solid 2: http://ps2.ign.com/previews/14538.html

Here's a quote:

"the ambient weather effects and general lighting in the game are so amazing that they'll give you goose bumps when you see it. The rain, for instance, is the most realistic looking rain that has ever been included in a videogame. In this one particular scene towards the end of the video where, you get to see some rain falling and splattering off Solid Snake. This effect was so stirring that there was a collective "Oh my God" from the viewing audience. This was just one of a plethora of highly cinematic scenes that got strong emotional reactions from the audience. "

[vimes]

They dropped the character poly-count for the Dreamcast, but upped it for the PS2 (for UT).

See the latest issue of EGM for details.[/QOUTE]

The review that I read the UT was compared between the PS2 and PC, nothing was said about the Dreamcast.