von shrad Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 O.K. , you all know me from the board and probably are aware that I don't bitch for nothing. But today I am going to let you all know how I feel about Pbem slackers and quitters. What has got me pissed is that I have been waiting for a turn from an opponent for over a week. Now this person posted on the board as a Newby that wanted to get his Pbem feet wet. Since he had no previous Pbem experiance he needed to be taught how to play one through. That was acheived through several E-mails and board postings. I took the time to explain it all without hardly a thank you. Well we started a game and exchanged several turns for a couple of days. Then the battle started going bad for him and he stopped sending turns. I don't think he is away, just not responding. That is bull****! If the battle would have been going good I'm sure the turns would be flying in at me. But no, not a word from this person. I am sure glad that I devoted all this time to never have a conclusion!!! So, you know who, send me a turn or be off of my Pbem list. Also I hate it when people quit a game early and surrender when all is not done. I know that it is differant when you play a Operation but these are just single battles. Let me reap the rewards of a victory a little. I'm not saying play till the last man just dont quit when you think all is lost when there is plenty of opportunity to fight. This has happened several times. I am talking about early surrenders. They lose a special unit then quit. I have played several games out when things were going bad.People like Elvis and SS-Pl will tell you that I am the kind of player that acknowleges good play by my opponent. I will usually play till the end just so they can enjoy their victory. Now I'm not saying you should do as I do but, dont quit at the first signs of despair. Most of the times all is not lost as you think. How do you guys feel about this? Remember I'm not talking about operations just single games. VS P.S. Sam and Glen I am not speaking of you in this post. Just wanted to be clear about that. Its not like either of you would quit as you're pounding my troops!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Interested in your point regarding surrendering. I'm currently playing a game where surrender has definitely been an option for several turns now. Almost immediately, though, it struck me that I shouldn't rob my opponent of the thrill of a true victory (despite the fact that my ladder score is going to really reek - I should be playing in the newbie pond). For myself, I won't choose to quit until I know that I have no chance at all. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOPork Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 I am currently fighting a friend. He wiped out my tanks immediately in the first couple of turns. But my infantry in the woods came out and up close screwed the rest of his tanks. I thought i was defeated a turn before, but now we were on even ground. Haven't gotten a respond either. I talked to him about it and he says "sorry dude, i forgot all about it" then he goes and plays q3. bah. =\ I think every player should play as long as there's a possibility of winning. I would surrender if there was 0 chance of a turn around. But even if there was a tiny bit of chance, it's worth tryin. I personally find learning better, when i'm the one being owned. I think when you're losing, you have to think more, because your decisions are much more crucial. But that's just me. In every game i've played online in the past 4 years, there is always people who leave duels whining. A real man can say Good Luck, Nice Shot and Good Game. -KOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Not me! I'll stick it out until the last ammo belt and tank round are gone. If I have troops in the field with still some fighting spirit remaining I'll finish the fight one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffen Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 i think we will all see these types .ive had a few already quit.although its a game i treat it as more then that .ive been hammerd and i will not quit as i feal it robs the other person of there hard fought victory.only prob ive had is finding out how to surrender should i hit a set of buttons and should i then get a surrender file so we can both veiw the stats .anyone know how to surrender in the game any ideas would be great cheers all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Well von Shrad, you've hit upon what seperates the panzergrenadiers from the volksturm: Some people just don't have the balls to stick by their commitments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyland Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Hello I think this is an excellent time for me to remove a weight from my chest. When playing two PBEM games with the Beta Demo, I was having my derrier handed to me with parsley on the side for decoration. I was not enjoying the slow pace of inevitable destruction and I too slunk away silently, never to return a turn or even post on the CM board. I gave myself various rationalizations, including not having time because of my physician responsibilities, etc. In reality, that was a bunch of crap. I was wrong. To Doug Berman and Goanna (Wil), I apologize whole-heartedly. To Black Sabot, von Lucke, Pcelt (the only one who is clearly defeating me) and anyone else I eventually meet in battle, I wish to assure you I find that behavior deplorable and will not repeat it. Ever. Thank you Jonathan [This message has been edited by Freyland (edited 06-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffen Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Jonathan well done to say your wrong and sorry shows your a true panzergrenadier as Von Lucke said .well done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Hmmm... Yes and no, the point of playing is to enjoy the game, the challenge, the clash of minds. If my opponent for some reason is not satisfied with the game I can´t really enjoy it either, no matter if his dissatisfaction stems from bad character, bad luck or things just don´t feel right this time. The instant one of the players feels bad about it I say, fine, lets set up a new game. A good player doesn’t quit for the "wrong" reasons anyhow. As for getting irritated by quitters, well, my solution is to just count the good games and stick with the good players. Over the years you meet all kinds, some quickly forgotten, some, always a pleasure to play, staying for god knows how long. Just drop the rotten eggs... M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesreidau Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 If we take a few examples from history, it may give the "accused" something to think about: What would have happened if 1) The defenders of Rorke`s Drift had said "Sod this, I`m off for tea" 2) The 300 Spartans buggered off 3) Well..you get my point Gents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocky Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Totally agree with you Von Shrad There is nothing worse than doing all the hard work and not getting to taste the sweet scent of Victory!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if losing should continue as long as there is the slightest chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Ok! Thank-you Mattias I'll certianly being looking you up for a game when the final release arrives on my HD. Great attitude, I agree completely. I must admit I'm a little bored with the Two Gold demo scenarios at this point, but I will certainly be looking for some good natured and credible PBEM opponents, hopefully sooner rather than later.... -tom w <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattias: Hmmm... Yes and no, the point of playing is to enjoy the game, the challenge, the clash of minds. If my opponent for some reason is not satisfied with the game I can´t really enjoy it either, no matter if his dissatisfaction stems from bad character, bad luck or things just don´t feel right this time. The instant one of the players feels bad about it I say, fine, lets set up a new game. A good player doesn’t quit for the "wrong" reasons anyhow. As for getting irritated by quitters, well, my solution is to just count the good games and stick with the good players. Over the years you meet all kinds, some quickly forgotten, some, always a pleasure to play, staying for god knows how long. Just drop the rotten eggs... M.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ------------------ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Have you thanked BTS by buying your SECOND copy of CM yet?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerdude Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 You guys are all right. One thing I would point out is the "responsibility" of teaching. I've been playing wargames for over 20 years and taught many a newbie. Don't teach for the thank you's, don't teach for the thrill of a game. If you do, you will almost always be disappointed. If you're going to teach, do it knowing that 1 out of 10 or 20 will become a fanatic, just like you, who will become a great challenge for you and others. Teaching also increases the chances of having enough "bulletheads" to make CM2,3,4,10.3 all possible. Enough preaching, but enough whining too... ------------------ Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted June 9, 2000 Author Share Posted June 9, 2000 The not sending a turn or not even a surrender is what bothers me most. I also had a game pretty much in the bag with the beta demo. It was Reisburg and I was the Germans' so it was no small feat to pull of a victory. The person I was playing said it was over. I said cool just send a surrender so I can view the map and have some closure to many hours of play. I never did see it. I sent several E-mails and he didnt even have the decency to respond. Thats crap IMO. I dont care if the other player is winning. Just dont dissapear. Freyland, now dont you feel better? That took guts. Good job naughty boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 I see your point. And we all hate it when someone quits just because of a small set back...but, if it's really over, it's over. I was getting my head handed to me a week or so ago in a game of CE as the US. I had lost all of my Shermans and the German had two Stugs left and infantry in good order in the woods on the US side of the map...it was over. I could have been UNrealistic and fought it to last man. Or I could have dragged the game out by slowing disengaging my forces and exiting them off of the map. In real life (or an operation) I think any commander 'worth his salt' would have disengaged and "live to fight another day". But disengage in a stand-alone battle in a PBEM game would have required at LEAST a half dozen more turns with VERY LITTLE (if any) action. I just don't see the pay back for me or my opponent. I would have much rather started another game altogether. IMO, a long disengagement, spending all that time and effort exiting troops and prolonging an already decided game just so that the end screen will show a realistic result is just not worth it. And this goes if it is me losing, or me winning. Hell, if it goes on too damn long when I am winning, I will surrender! Chasing a fleeing opponent off the map is NOT my idea of fun, sorry. But if anyone is planning on joining a ladder get ready for it...that is why I am not sure I will join a ladder myself. I for one wish CM had an option like in "Close Combat" so that a player could "Withdraw" from a stand-alone battle and NOT have 100% of his forces automatically surrender. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted June 9, 2000 Author Share Posted June 9, 2000 Panzerdude, I'm afraid i didnt make myself clear. I was not looking for a thank you although common courtesy would have been o.k. by me. I taught this player for the same reason I usually greet a new poster to the board. Its in hindsight that you realise that they didnt say thanks. I'm not worried about that. Its the dissapearing that bothers me. In the trade that I do I often have aprentices who work under me. A lot of people dont take the time to train them as it slows down your production. Not me. I do it to help them out...not me. If your asking for help though, and recive it, a thanks is in order. At least it is how I was raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted June 9, 2000 Author Share Posted June 9, 2000 Scott and mattias, I'm talking about the player who quits on turn 3 when his 75mm bunker is taken out. If thats is the norm for ladder play, count me out forever. Its like the kid who takes his marbles home all pissed off because you were beating him. That is childish. [This message has been edited by von shrad (edited 06-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Offwhite Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 I have to take issue with the idea that the losing player has an obligation to stay in it until the bitter end just so the winner has full opportunity to crow. (And if I'm misreading you guys' posts please say so.) As Mattias says, it's no fun to play against someone who's heart isn't in it anymore. To those who seem only to crave the acclaim that comes with victory, if your opponent surrenders, doesn't it imply that he respects your ability? Don't look at surrender as somehow cheating the victor. Wesriedau's historical reminders are relevant, but remember a lot of victories have been won because the defender mistakenly believed himself in a hopeless situation (the British at Boston or Singapore, for instance, or Graf Spee at the River Plate). Give the attackers in those situations credit for their show of force - but I'm sure they were not the least bit disappointed when their enemy conceded the fight. edited for your non-anti-British-bias reading pleasure [This message has been edited by Offwhite (edited 06-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Pattison Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 Being from the chess community point of view, I have no problem with someone quitting early. Whether I kick the living snot out of someone or just pysch them out, the victory's just as sweet. I am not going rub salt in their wounds when the outcome is no longer in doubt. It's not beneficial to either one of us. It would be better for both of us to set up another scenario and have another go, you get more games in that way. But, I do think that it is bad manners for someone to walk away from a game without informing your opponent that you've decided not to continue. Personally, I won't surrender until all options have run out and the situation is beyond all hope of reversal. Then, it's no longer a game, it's murder. In summary, I agree with Mattias... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPeng Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 When the gold came out I and everyone I was in the middle of PBEMs with bailed on the games in progress. Nobody said nuthin bout nuthin. Just "THE GOLD IS HERE! THE GOLD IS HERE!" and pair up with your favorite CM bitch and f**k him hard in a little place called Plomville. (It seems my little place called Plomville is right between my arse cheeks). I don't think this is what you were talking about, I hope not. By that point I think all of us were ready for some new scenarios...I would have rather ripped my own head off than play LD or Reisburg again, or keep playing an "out of date" version of the game. So, if anyone out there is stewing about me bagging a beta demo game he can just bugger off and kill me in a blind game when the real game ships. OK? fine. Peng ------------------ Peng sez "die a lot now." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWorthing Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 I agree with Jeff and Von Shrad. It is annoying but what can you do? I just wish they would tell you and then send it with the last movie (if there is one) so you can bask in your winning move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Offwhite Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 LOL I have seen eloquence personified... and his name is Peng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 It's an excellent point. You know what really gets to me about the post is the time Von Shrad spent getting the guy squared away...and the fellow never gives a nod of thanks. If been lucky. The Beta demo was my first game ever against a human, PBEM or otherwise. Talk about a wargame wallflower I was it. The guys I played early on were great and patient. from those games developed some intersting conversations and Email friendships. I play to win but I've learned more about the game by a loss most often. As far as surrender... If I think I'm doomed I give a heads up to my OPFOR. If he has a need to continue so be it. The game should be fun, the Email should be fun or at least comfortable to deal with. If it isn't finish the game and pass on a replay. If it's soooo bad send an Email and end it...don't let the other guy hang. To all my past present and future PBEM partners I say thanks. And to those of you who have yet to play this game PBEM...jump in friend, the water's fine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 There is a big difference between offering a surrender when it's obvious nothing further is to be gained by continued battle, and slinking off into the twilight without a word to your opponent just because you think you might loose. IMHO it's the difference between winners and loosers --- no matter how the game plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted June 9, 2000 Share Posted June 9, 2000 I myself haven't been too accurate in getting back to my PBEM opponents lately. There are A LOT of credible reasons for this, time being the primary one. It doesn't take long to do and send out a hasty PBEM, but, it makes the game less fun rushing. I have also experienced technical difficulties, such as a missing 32 MB of RAM (I used to have 64, now I only have 32, what the?!?) so, my computer keeps on crashing a lot (due to the loss of all this extra memory). I have also moved back home for the summer (for a summer job) and I am still trying to figure out how to SEND e-mail from this different server using my e-mail name (don't want to have to use the Parent's computer, since it cannot run CM!). I tried to copy PBEM files to disk and run them up and down from computer to computer, but, this doesn't work very well. I am conected to the Internet, so, I can post, but, I cannot easily send PBEMs. I am going to try to do at least one per day, if I am lucky. I have to figure out how to get my e-mail on MY computer to send out files (keeps on giving me an ERROR message). I am not NOT responding because I am losing, I play games all the way through, losing or winning (as previous opponents will state). You just have to be patient with me, as, circumstances really suck for me right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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