Delta Charlie 228 Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 Okay, so I know I'd voluntarily left...but I just thought of y'all when I came across this here, and thought everyone would find it amusing. http://www.nypost.com/news/25975.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Charlie 228 Posted March 10, 2000 Author Share Posted March 10, 2000 Oh, BTW, forgot my commentary...isn't that just disgusting, how all the damned p.c. people have taken over. Now how come lesbo singer k.d. lang didn't get flamed for using a Nazi (not Buddhist or what have you) swastika on one of her rock groupie shirts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heibis Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 Delta Charlie, dont be so naive! This sucker might be no nazi, but he sure has doubtful motives wanting to drive around with "waffn SS" on his licence plates... Political Correctness has nothing to do with this, as a matter of fact I think the idea that you have a right to name your own licence plates is a faulty one. KD Lang has a right to express herself, no matter how lesbian she might be. If you want WAFFEN SS to be written all over your car, why dont you just use some paint? The government is supposed to be impartial and equal for all, not allowing some twisted minds to spell out their predudice... I rest my case before this is starting to look like some sort of flaming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
137th Gebirg Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 Although I'm not entirely sure I agree with Delta Charlie's flamboyant anti-PC rhetoric, I will say that the article he cited is erroneous in its claim that "The notorious Waffen SS troops ran the Nazis' death camps". It was, in fact, the Algemeine SS - a special SS branch run entirely by Himmler - that was responsible for the death camps. The Waffen SS were merely elite shock troops that specialized in small unit tactics. I will add that it's disgusting how politically correct zealots have twisted the facts of history to suit their own reconstructive vision of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Schuggerbaby Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 [The Waffen SS were merely elite shock troops that specialized in small unit tactics. Well this is not exactly true. Not a long time ago there was a TV docu in germany about the Waffen SS. It is quite interesting to know that by far the most units consists not(!) of germans later in the war. They consists of Croats, Rumanians, and even Volunteers from occupied countries. These units suffered horrendeous losses during the war and later in the war if KZ inmates were pressed into service(!). They were responsible for many warcrimes in occupied countries and at the start of the french campaign rightly feared by their Wehrmacht superiors for their undiscipline ( there was a shocking interview with a british veteran who survived somehow despite being locked up in a barn with his comrades and the SS tosses some handgrenades in and incinerate the building). When the Wehrmacht units arrive they arrested some of the SS men and were going to war trial, but Himmlers patronage saved them from being executed. Schuggerbaby, who founds nothing Elite on the Waffen SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 Schugger: Generalizations. Oversimplifications. And regarding the elite status of the Waffen-SS (not all divisions, I know): take a look at the unit histories of Leibstandarte, Totenkopf and some others. Or study their TO&E's. Or even easier try a search on the topic here in this forum. You should get a lot of threads with this topic discussed. Enjoy. Ps: As I can say as a native German, you will NEVER see a fair and accurate discussion regarding the Wehrmacht or the Waffen-SS on German television. NEVER. It's totally against political correctness. [This message has been edited by Lindan (edited 03-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted March 10, 2000 Share Posted March 10, 2000 It isn't what they did, it is what the organization represents. The Average Waffen SS soldier blindly followed Hitler's beliefs and orders and were on a different playing ground than the rest of the German Army. The SS was an organization built upon hate, as the Nazi organization was built upon hate, and the SS was created to enforce the party. Not every unit in the Waffen SS committed crimes against humanity (ran deathcamps, killed civilians for no reason, killed Allied and Soviet POW's just for the sake of it) but, there was a greater predominence of "illegal acts" done by the SS, waffen or guard. Troops were shifted back and forth from the two positions, those who fought in the Waffen were often transferred to the rear, to guard camps, and vice versa. In my books, the SS, waffen or otherwize is still considered to be an evil organization, purely by what they represented. Certain units of the Waffen SS were elite, mostly those of children brainwashed in 1934-35 who just became of age to fight (16?). However, there were a large number of foreign SS units, which were extremely bruital. Much of the present day angst in Yugoslavia revolves around the fact that those in the North bruitalized the Serbs and other Slavs, reasoning that it was done to them in the past. ON AVERAGE, SS units (Waffen and Police) were MUCH more bruital than regular army units. The 12th SS division MURDERED many Canadian POW's for NO REASON AT ALL! We can only focus on Averages and Generalities because we are talking about an ORGANIZATION not individual people. Those who freely take part in the wrongdoings of the organization are as guilty as those who give the orders. And DC228, we on this board aren't Politically Correct, far from it. We just realize that certain positions are indefendable, such as Hitler having many redeeming qualities, and the SS is just another run of the mill military formation. What does KD Lang have to do with anything? 99% of us don't even know what you are talking about? Throw up an article about this, so we can judge for ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerLeader Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Hehe, the poor man should have written "WEHRMACHT" on his licence plate, if he's a military buff... It wasn't an evil organisation, so the PC people couldn't have blamed him! And I agree with Delta Charlie that some in modern music should get arrested or should get some sort of penalty, they're waay too insane to be tolerated in society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Oooooo, let's not get into the whole Waffen SS debate yet again Plenty of threads on this BBS to cruise through using Search. But it is easy to say that most people, both war buff and those that are ignorant, don't understand the Waffen SS beyond its thin facade. Let's just say that like all things coming out of Nazi Germany it is a bit more complex than either side things. Just a bit Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howitzer Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Ya know... This USED to be America, and you USED to have freedom of speech -- USED to. Is putting WAFFN SS on your license plate asking for trouble? Sure. But, is it "morally" wrong? Not in my opinion. I wouldn't praise that group as a whole, exactly because of the divided (and divisive) nature of the organization. Just don't get me started on the KDLang thing!...just DON'T get me started! Steve C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Howitzer: Ya know... This USED to be America, and you USED to have freedom of speech -- USED to. Is putting WAFFN SS on your license plate asking for trouble? Sure. But, is it "morally" wrong? Not in my opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nonsense. First, having a driving license is a privilege, not a right and the government is free to regulate it as it sees fit. The government is just as much w/in its rights to stop you putting "WaffnSS" on your car as it is to stop you putting "kill niggaz", "smoke dope" or "sh*thead". If you want to paint the above on your car, however, you are free to do so, and free to face the consequences too. Second, no matter how bravely or nobly individual Waffen-SS units fought, or how nice individual members of the SS were to dogs and little children, the entire organization is tainted at its root. The SS was the armed wing of the National Socialist German Workers' Party; they were thoroughly implicated in the Holocaust; any judgement as to the nature of the SS as an organization starts there. Anyone who doesn't believe that the NSDAP was all that bad, or that the Holocaust wasn't such a big deal has their own issues to face. ------------------ Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Umm... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> We just realize that certain positions are indefendable, such as Hitler having many redeeming qualities, and the SS is just another run of the mill military formation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It'll be a sad day when this board agrees that the two instances cited above really are indefensible. As Steve this whole issue is very complicated. Were all Waffen-SS soldiers evil death camp guards etc? No. Were they all just good, honest soldiers fighting for country and family? No. Did they commit atrocities? Yes. Are any of the atrocities etc they committed confined to the Waffen-SS ? No. I can point you to veteran's stories in which they relate orders from US generals directing them NOT to take Germans prisoner. We can talk about French towns in which looting and raping by Allied troops occured. I really don't like the way some people try to get all black and white on these issues. EVERYTHING in war is a shade of grey. Hitler had redeeming qualities and was evidently an intelligent man. Was the mass murder of Jews terrible? Yes. Was the launching of a war of aggression terrible? Oh give me a break. Countries have been launching wars of aggression since the first country was formed. EVERY country which fought against Hitler has launched wars of aggression against peacable neighbours at some time of its history. Let us all try to just read history and interpret it in as non-judgmental a manner as possible. All this villification and stone-casting gets in the way of proper appreciations of what happened IMO. Oh, BTW one of my points above was that people in glass houses should be careful casting stones. [This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 03-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 I think the media (who has become lazy) Just assumes any unit labeled SS killed the Jews, the same as all german soldiers during WWII were nazi's. As we know, this is not true.On the waffen-ss, of course they did horrible things, But I am sure every other unit and nationality did so also. You just will not read about them.... Why? *History is written by the winners.* I know that sounds simple.. but its the truth. Lorak ------------------ ------------------------- This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life. Without my rifle I am useless. Without me, my rifle is useless... http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Schuggerbaby Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Oooooo, let's not get into the whole Waffen SS debate yet again Plenty of threads on this BBS to cruise through using Search. But it is easy to say that most people, both war buff and those that are ignorant, don't understand the Waffen SS beyond its thin facade. Let's just say that like all things coming out of Nazi Germany it is a bit more complex than either side things. Just a bit Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My talent to hit the nearest "Fettnaepfchen" strikes again! I didn't want to offend someone, but i really enjoy to discuss with people about military history, espacially if they have a different oppinions. If the discussion about the Waffen SS is not wanted in this Forum, i really have no problem with that! OK? Schuggerbaby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Schuggerbaby, I think you misunderstand slightly.. Discussion is welcome. Some members of the forum subscribe to the "only soldiers" view, others subscribe to the "All SS are tainted view" and others subscribe to what I call the "bad **** happens" view. I think Steve just doesn't want anyone getting involved in a flamewar with someone over differing views of the Waffen-SS. Personally I thikn that rational discussion can never be bad but with some topics it often ends up with someone personally insulting another poster. I'm sure that is all that Steve wants to avoid (he's not big on censorship by any means). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Morgue Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 As a war veteran , i know war is man at his worst. And all sides of a war have men on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werfer Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Yes Sgt.Morgue, war is man at his worst. It's just to bad that pencil-pushers who both cause/start them don't end up on the firing line like the ordinary Joes, Ivans etc.... werfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt.Morgue: As a war veteran , i know war is man at his worst. And all sides of a war have men on them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Undoubtedly true. Ever since man has made war, however, there have been, for want of a better term, "rules of war". These have varied across space and time, and as with all rules, they have been sometimes observed and sometimes ignored by different cultures at various points. In modern times, attempts have been made to codify them especially WRT treatment of civilians and treatment of POWs. In the ETO, these codifications were broadly observed by all sides*, including the Wehrmacht, excepting the SS. Yes, war crimes occured on all sides in the ETO, but I defy anyone to prove that they were widespread among the Allied forces or, for that matter, the Wehrmacht and the Italian Army. In the SS, they were commonplace. Furthermore, SS conduct in the war was encouraged from the top, starting w/Himmler and going through Heydrich et al. Such was definitely not the case with the Allies. Saying everyone did it so the SS are no different is simply incorrect because everyone did not do it. Ethan *I should note that I don't know about the Red Army in this regard. That's unimportant in this discussion, however, as no one seems to be giving a pass to the Red Army. ------------------ Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 I'm not even going to recognize this with comments. ------------------ Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn. Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterNZ Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 I think we have a congruence of two different views of war and history. I'm getting flashbacks to the Semiology discussion I had last night. While we here are smart enough to know our stuff and know that blame isn't solely to be laid at the feet of one group or side, we must remember that to many the WW2 is a medely of symbols and ideas. One of these symbols and ideas, a 'sign' is that of the SS, and Waffen SS by default. While we have all become accustomed to the ideas and symbols and explored them deeply most of the public hasn't, (since we're in the minority, I reckon we must be some of those cooks society should get rid of, as mentioned in some earlier post ) Whereas, joe public sees the Waffen SS name or an SS symbol and immediately a semiological link is made to war crimes, the holocost, etc, etc. It doesn't matter whether or not there is a real-life historical link, the perception is there and the associations are made. For this reason i can totally see the reasons why the Govt. would not permit someone to have such a number plate, because a good number of people would be offended. It's irrelevant whether their offence is based on real world facts of figures, and to argue that their feelings of disgust are somehow 'incorrect' would show who the fool really was. The fact would remain that people would be upset. For this reason the govt. probably figures it's better just to not let it happen that to deal with all the **** that would go down if someone did. I think that this kinda debate is used by people like the poster, (if not the poster themself), to push their own political agenda and issues, while trying to cover their arguments, (and don't they often, deep down, end up in arguments about supperiority of a race or culture?). Noone here is quite so foolish, from what I've read, but I think we do need to be aware of the fact that symbols and signs have meanings that are greater than the sum of their parts, if you follow. And while of course, the SS etc etc had their good, bad and ugly that the rest of the public does not view history with perhaps the same clarity and insite as we might hope too. As for KD Lang, I can understand how the symbols she wore would be 'accepted'. It's not too hard to think it through. We see her wearing this, and think "what's going on", instantly we're pretty sure she's not going to be a Nazi because her politics are strongly directed somewhere else. Infact we know she's part of a group that we persecuted by the Nazi regime, (that is, homosexuals), so her shirt-wearing must be some kinda of statement directed somewhere else. I'm not sure what she was trying to say, but the incongrousness of her in Nazi kit makes me smile and also removes and offence, for me at least. If other people choose to be offended, well that's up to them, and if they don't like it they can do something about it. To me, the number plate and KD Lang represent two quite different situations. One is a fairly out their artist known for her vocal political style and her desire to court controversy, the other is some statement by an unknown that most people would imagine leads to the conclusion 'nazi', (whether or not that conclusion is correct). Ok, i'm at work and typing and thinking a bit too quick so this is mostly jumble. But anyway. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 The debate is pretty much pointless. Anybody that takes a view that is too one sided (SS = Bad or SS = average joe) is simply wrong. Just like anybody that takes that view about anything in the war (Allies = Pure Good, Nazis = Pure Bad). The truth has a everlasting habit of being somewhere inbetween. From all my studies of the Waffen SS they MOSTLY played within the rules of war, at least in the West. The Allies also largely played within the rules of war. But both sides comitted atrocities against each other and the civilian populations. Does this mean that the Allies were as bad as the Nazis? Hell no, but it doesn't excuse their behavior either, just as saying the Allies weren't always good doesn't excuse the bad that others did. And remember... the victor writes the history we read. For every documented Allied war atrocity I have read (plenty to choose from) there were most likely MANY that were hushed up and never written down at all or ever spoke about in the least. Yet for every one the Germans did there are probably only a handful that were not written down. In other words, what you see documented about the Germans is probably pretty close to the truth, but what you see about the Allies is only the tip of something larger. Skewed historical sampling, selectively pruned by the victor. That is just the way it goes in war. For those that don't want to face the possibility that I am correct should probably not discuss this at all. On another note, while the Waffen SS itself was not a direct instrument of atrocities for the most part, its parent organization certainly was. And as has been discussed here several times, enough members of the Waffen SS served in the camps and execution squads (not as regular Waffen SS in some views, but still with Waffen SS paybooks and uniforms) that their record is not seperate from that of the larger SS. Again, history is complex and anybody who tries to paint things as black and white will never be able to understand what it is they are discussing. No slight on anybody, just a truism that to really attempt to understand an issue you really have to live it for a while. 'been a while since I was a History major, but it kinda sticks with you like gum on your shoes Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterNZ Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Good points all around Steve Which is why I don't mind yer govt. saying "no" to a Waffen SS numberplate Don't know what the big deal is myself hehe PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 The SS will forever be tainted, wether or not it be justified. They didn't pick a totally innocent organization and vilify it. The Waffen SS was a military formation, and it is difficult to separate it from the Policing element. The philosophy of the SS is not to defend a nation, but, to defend an individual Party and it's ideals. Possibly it has gotten a bad rap, but, such is life. Sorry if I drifted on the shores of the SS are all bad evil devils and should die DIE! DIE!!!!! SS_Panzerleader seems harmless. Just finished watching Fawlty Towers, the German episode. They did start the war by invading Poland though [This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 03-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 Hehe... I watched that episode two weeks ago. Helps to have the whole lot in a boxed edition of video tapes The study of the SS, and the Nazi state as a whole, is really fascinating. I guess that is why I don't like to see the polarized views of it. Sure, overall it was a bad bunch of thugs (evil if you want), but that isn't saying much we didn't already know Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted March 11, 2000 Share Posted March 11, 2000 I this is a useless post.... But damn Steve, Don't you sleep? ------------------ ------------------------- This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life. Without my rifle I am useless. Without me, my rifle is useless... http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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