BK6583 Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 Where did these guys come from? I've been playing CM for months now but this week was the first time I think I'd ever really faced off against Hetzers in a scenario. I know sloped armor makes a BIG difference, but jeez, invulnerable is a word I hadn't considered. By that I mean I had 4 Sherman 75's all hunting together. At the end of the turn they come across a Hetzer (its front facing the Shermans) at about 500m. I start the next turn gleefully expecting the 4 Shermans to toast it. Well, two dead Shermans and about TWELVE ricochet's later (the Hetzer at least suffered a gun damaged hit), that Hetzer was still manned and sitting there, almost like a boxer waving his gloves at me asking for more! Had that Hetzer been a Panther, it would almost certainly have been knocked out. The Hetzer is one tough nut to crack open! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 A Sherman 75 can't kill a Panther at 500m except for weak spot penetrations. Even a 76 has problems at this range. Dschugaschwili ------------------ Erst hat man kein Glück, und dann kommt auch noch Pech dazu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 So, I recon you haven't been up against Jagdpanzer IV/70 either. Now that's a tough nut to crack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 I oncehad a Hetzer in a QB vs American M4 . The Hetzer was out of ammo...the M4 fires 32 shots at its frontal armour ..... and 60 + rounds of 81 mm mortar fire peppered the area ...not one bit of damage to the Hetzer....except when i eventually moved it....side penetration Yes those lil guys are nasty if you get them in the right position. Måk?ager ------------------ Once an Ubërcabbage Always an Ubërcabbage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BK6583: Where did these guys come from? I've been playing CM for months now but this week was the first time I think I'd ever really faced off against Hetzers in a scenario. I know sloped armor makes a BIG difference, but jeez, invulnerable is a word I hadn't considered. By that I mean I had 4 Sherman 75's all hunting together. At the end of the turn they come across a Hetzer (its front facing the Shermans) at about 500m. I start the next turn gleefully expecting the 4 Shermans to toast it. Well, two dead Shermans and about TWELVE ricochet's later (the Hetzer at least suffered a gun damaged hit), that Hetzer was still manned and sitting there, almost like a boxer waving his gloves at me asking for more! Had that Hetzer been a Panther, it would almost certainly have been knocked out. The Hetzer is one tough nut to crack open! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've found the solution while testing a port of an SL scenario I've done (Sc 98, I'll post it soon at ASL2CM). Well, this one pits 4 Churchill VII vs 1 Hetzer, the Hetzer just can't penetrate the Churchs elephant armor, while it get toasted by any Lower Hull Pen under 300 m. OK, this fight isn't fair, but it showed that these Church VII are very reliable beasties (though they are ugly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 Jarmo wrote: So, I recon you haven't been up against Jagdpanzer IV/70 either. Now that's a tough nut to crack! I seem to remember one particular Jagdpanzer IV that got toasted with the first shot... - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 Don't think they are that invulnerable. I had a simultaneous kill with a Greyhound, a frontal duel where I was laughing all the way until my Hetzer bought it. Penetration at weak spot at 150m from the M8's peashooter. One also should not forget that they are turretless, so they can easily be outflanked, and their rear and side armour apparently can be penetrated by .50 HMGs. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navare Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dschugaschwili: A Sherman 75 can't kill a Panther at 500m except for weak spot penetrations. Even a 76 has problems at this range. Dschugaschwili <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In one of my battles I had my Hetzer and my opponents M4(76) squared off at a range of 30 meters. The M4(76) bounced three shells of the of Hetzer armor before the Hetzer torched it. ------------------ Navare "I am determined to prove a villian..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: ... they are turretless, so they can easily be outflanked,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've thought about starting a new thread on the subject of turret vs no turret. If you flank a turreted vehucle, say a PzKw IV, and it spots you, it rotates the turret and leave the broadside hull for you to hit. A turretless vehicle in the same situation turns the front towards you. Needless to say what I prefer... I also did a test recently to see which vehicle type was faster to open fire at a target 90deg to the side. Panther A vs Jagdpanther, same skill level (one each of Veteran and Crack). Targets were assault boats. Vehicles stationary in dry grass. No FOW. - With a plain 'target' command the TD was a fraction faster. - With 'target' and 'rotate' straight at the target, the tank was notably a little faster. - With only 'target' command for the TD and 'target' plus 'rotate' towards the target (with about the same offset as the TD traverse) for the tank, the TD was notably faster. In crossfire there will of course always be a side shot available. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Adder Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 Hi BK6583, This topic has been extensively discussed here at the forum before. The Hetzer had a few advantages, like low profile, sloped armour and a good (not excellent) gun. Penetration with the 75 mm Pak 39 L/48 (Hetzer gun): Thickness of armor penetrated (range meters): 100, 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500 PzGr 39 (ammo)106, 96, 85, 74, 64 (mm) PzGr 40 (ammo)143, 120, 97, 77 (mm) Thickness of the Sherman Tanks armor: 63mm * Sherman 75mmM3 gun: 100mm armor@500m range (APCBC M61 ammo). Hetzer armor 60mm@60° => 120mm penetration thickness! However, its side and rear armour was thin (Hull rear 8 mm). That's why a Hetzer can knock out a Sherman (data from http://www.shadowsfolly.com/WWII/) Achtung Panzer writes: "Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer was fast, low and hard hitting and is considered to be one of the most successful tank destroyers of World War II. It proved to be a dangerous opponent and is considered as one of the best German tank-hunters. Hetzer's design is still considered to be a base for many modern tank destroyers, the most notably including Swedish Stridsvagn 103 (S-Tank)" (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pzcz.htm#hetzer) In March 1943, Colonel General Heinz Guderian, wanted a light tank destroyer. First prototype appeared in December 1943. Production started at BMM in April 1944 and by Skoda in September 1944. Produced in Prague, Pilsen, Königgrätz, Böhm, and Breslau. Consider the date the Hetzer was ordered and its specifications, and you see that it was mainly a defensive weapon. You point it in the direction where you suspect your enemy will show up, and then you will do pretty well. As with other tank destroyers, the gun had a limited traverse, about -11° right +5° left. The gun (75 mm Pak 39 L/48) was the same used in the PzKpfwIV, but with muzzle brake removed. Best regards, The Adder ------------------ "The Germans are such a cruel and inhuman race; they have no word for fluffy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss: I seem to remember one particular Jagdpanzer IV that got toasted with the first shot... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Even tough nuts crack sometimes... But that wasn't a "/70" version. There's a difference, and it's a big one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 In the /70 version of the Jpz IV is the only improvment in the gun or are there other advantages? ------------------ And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh. -Steve My website! A major source of Wild Bill scenarios! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin: In the /70 version of the Jpz IV is the only improvment in the gun or are there other advantages? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 20mm extra armor, it's almost as tough as Jagdpanther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwin Posted November 10, 2000 Share Posted November 10, 2000 Look at the pretty picture, I like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted November 10, 2000 Share Posted November 10, 2000 Actual frontal armor values for comparison (CM 1.05): Jagdpanther (85% armor quality): upper hull: 68mm/55 degs lower hull: 51mm/55 Hetzer (85% armor quality): upper hull: 51mm/60 degs lower hull: 51mm/40 Pz IV/70 (90% armor quality): superstruc: 72mm/50 degs upper hull: 72mm/45 lower hull: 45mm/55 JPz IV (90% armor quality): superstruc: 54mm/50 degs upper hull: 54mm/45 lower hull: 45mm/55 Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted November 10, 2000 Share Posted November 10, 2000 Have you included the quality ratings in the thickness values (listed rating * quality) in your table? I don't know if that's the correct way of calculating effective armor ratings. Does anyone have information on what the quality rating actually does? Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted November 10, 2000 Share Posted November 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Adder: Achtung Panzer writes: ... "a base for many modern tank destroyers, the most notably including Swedish Stridsvagn 103 (S-Tank)" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just wanted to point out that Strv 103 is a MBT, and not a TD. The author in Achtung Panzer seem to have missed this... Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted November 10, 2000 Share Posted November 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dschugaschwili: [bDoes anyone have information on what the quality rating actually does?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Been asked many times, but I've never seen an answer. I'd love to know. ------------------ Most people assume that the M in US vehicle designations means "Model". Thus, the Medium Tank M4 Sherman would be the "Model #4" Medium tank. This is incorrect. The M actually stands for "Mortality" and the number represents the life expectancy of the vehicle in minutes. - Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkpowers Posted November 10, 2000 Share Posted November 10, 2000 I do like these hetzers ;just don't like running into them....last turn I just had 2 rick-o-shays off its frontal armor...come on lucky shot!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted November 10, 2000 Share Posted November 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dschugaschwili: Have you included the quality ratings in the thickness values (listed rating * quality) in your table? Dschugaschwili <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes I have. According to Charles that IS the correct way determine actual armor ratings. Here is the statement I'm basing my calculations on: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: The Hetzer's MG is indeed remote-controlled. The U.S. .50 cal was designed to destroy light armor. It can penetrate 12.7mm at 1000m, and 19mm at 550m, according to "Hell On Wheels" referencing the War Department's "Defense Against Mechanized Units". Obviously, at point-blank range, the penetration would be even greater (somewhere in the 22-25mm range, IIRC, sorry I don't have my data in front of me at the moment). That's enough to defeat the Hetzer's 20mm side armor. And there's more... The Hetzer has low quality armor.Very low quality. The kind that doesn't have the strength you'd expect. We rate it at 85% which is probably generous. So the effective side armor basis of the Hetzer is 17mm, which the .50 cal can penetrate quite easily at short ranges. And imagine what it's like. It's not a single shell penetrating. It's five, ten, maybe twenty or more. All richocheting around inside the tiny crew compartment, fragments flying everywhere. And more shots coming very quickly (no need to reload some big cannon, just squeeze the trigger!). The side of that Hetzer would look like Schweizer Käse. The .50 cal is a big bad mama jama. Charles <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hetzer's actual side armor: 0,85 * 20mm = 17mm Also if I have understood right the lower armor quality means bigger changes for weak spot penetrations and internal armor flaking. Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted November 10, 2000 Share Posted November 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa: Hetzer's actual side armor: 0,85 * 20mm = 17mm Also if I have understood right the lower armor quality means bigger changes for weak spot penetrations and internal armor flaking. Ari<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nice work Ari, I kept on running in circles thinking it was one or the other. But no its both. Again fine work ------------------ From the jshandorf "Why don't we compare reality to the game like Bastables likes to do all the time?" Mr T's reply "Don't touch me FOO!" "Yes that's right Jerry, RUN, Run for your little lives because Tommy's gotten close enough to assault mhahahahah." Nizam al-Mulk, (Order of the realm) In speaking of his superb disregard of maneuver warfare, in the destruction of OGSF hamsters who then carried on to flee the battle in their own notion of maneuver warfare. Tally HO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted November 10, 2000 Share Posted November 10, 2000 So Mr Knaust I can now see why you were so annoyed at the Loss of your tank at 500 plus meters to the first hit from my Stuart... Hmmm I now have sympathy and a big fear if you have any more hidden on the field of battle. H P.s. Now did I buy one or did I get something else?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts